--Apple-Mail-42--140576542
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/plain;
charset=WINDOWS-1252;
delsp=yes;
format=flowed
Interesting indeed.
The argument I would make in response to the original diet is that
yes, it is hard to raise a child from scratch on a vegan diet, and no
you won't find any natural vegan cultures because they've lacked the
technology to do so. But as we sit here in the richest and most
technologically advanced nation on the planet, consuming vast amounts
of luxury depending on extremely complicated technologies, the point
is that we are now able to. More and more it is becoming easily
possible for our society to become vegan safely and responsibly.
I wouldn't recommend veganism for the poor, either individually or as
a nation. Eat whatever you need to in order to survive if surviving
at all is what you're struggling to do. Similarly I don't recommend a
vegan diet for lions in the jungle- they do what they're capable of,
they don't know any better.
But if you are rich, educated, and capable, you should consider a
vegan diet, or at least a diet heading that direction, avoiding
factory grown animal products, because you can. Why cause unnecessary
suffering if you don't have to? It boils down to a reasonable amount
of effort and a reasonable amount of cost. If may family were
starving, I would kill any number of chickens to feed my hungry
children. I would kill cattle. I would kill people if necessary. If
they were starving and I had no other choice. But if it's a choice
between vegan diet and getting digital cable that month... I'd give
up the digital cable. That's where many of us are really at.
Dave
On May 23, 2007, at 10:43 AM, Alyssa Pozniak wrote:
> just fyi - the below post originally appeared in a public health-
> related listserv i'm on and is in response to the Nina Planck
> editorial.
>
> and just to clarify for us non-vegans out here who aren't familar
> w/ the specifics -- does a vegan diet for a newborn mean no
> mother's breast milk? eliminating cow's milk (or other mammal's
> milk) i understand, but to not feed an infant breast milk as nature
> intended seems counter-intuitive to the "mother earth" stance that
> often goes hand in hand w/ the vegan/vegetarian way of life (yes i
> understand there are exceptions - i'm talking in general terms
> though). so i just wanted clarification from vegans in the know
> (but i *don't* want to start a debate on whether it's "good" vs.
> "bad"! :)
>
> Posted by: "Jason Ketola" keto0011 Æ umn.edu
>
> Mon May 21, 2007 12:48 pm (PST)
>
> Nina Planck's op-ed "Death by Veganism" ironically fails to list any
> deaths or even instances of ill-health resulting from well-planned
> vegan
> diets.
>
> To a vegan of eight years myself, who's met hundreds of thriving vegan
> adults and children, Planck's claims of the inadequacy of the vegan
> diet
> ring patently untrue.
>
> It's worth interrogating Nina Planck's connection to the Weston Price
> Foundation, which has a financial interest in disparaging veganism in
> favor of "real milk" and the like. Not to mention her interest in
> selling a book on that very topic.
>
> Jason
>
>
>
>
> On 5/23/07, Robert Felty wrote:
> Kapoo sent a link to an article which I think is worthy of
> improvetheworld discussion. The text of the article and a link to it
> are at the bottom. Here is my 2 cents:
>
> Interesting article, but lacking in one very crucial aspect --
> references.
>
> I have several books on vegan nutrition which address issues of
> Vitamin B12 deficiency and lists way in which it is possible to get
> the required nutrients. Certain types of Omega 3 fatty acids are very
> difficult to get as a vegan. However, one must also keep in mind that
> comparisons between vegetarians and meat-eaters should be made
> comparing average health of vegetarians to average health of meat-
> eaters, and many such studies show vegetarians to be healthier
> overall than omnivores.
>
> I would very highly recommend "Becoming Vegan" by Brenda Davis and
> Vesanto Melina. It has lots of useful nutrition facts, cites many
> studies in highly-regarded journals, and lists all references.
>
> In regards to giving infants soy milk instead of formula, it is well
> known that this is a bad idea, and most soymilks have a warning on
> the package that it should not be used as infant formula. There are
> soy-based formulas though. Here's a link to a page listing a variety
> of different formulas:
> http://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/formulafeed/1334669.html
>
> I also read a bit more about Crown Shakur on some other blogs. There
> were many atypical circumstances in the case. The parents were a
> black, vegan couple in Georgia, who gave birth at home, and were
> apparently also quite poor. I do think that they probably made some
> mistakes, but from my cursory knowledge of the case, it does not seem
> that they intentionally killed their baby. I also think it is nearly
> impossible to say "beyond the shadow of a doubt" that had they fed
> their child differently, it would have lived. One of Clare's friend's
> sisters recently lost a child. The child was about 3-4 weeks old, and
> was sleeping on the father's chest. Apparently the father dozed off
> for a bit, and when he awoke, the baby was cold and blue. I can only
> imagine how traumatic this could be, and I cannot imagine having to
> go through a trial after such an event. These parents did have to go
> through some sort of social services thing, but they were not
> punished by law.
>
> The young and old are both very vulnerable, and much more likely to
> die unexpectedly than those in the prime of their lives. Unless there
> is reason to believe that the parents of Crown Shakur really did not
> want children, I do not think that they should be viewed as
> murderers, but rather as parents who just lost a child, and they
> should be consoled instead of jailed. Some of this also boils down to
> philosophy about the penal system. What is the role of punishment in
> the penal system? Is it to deter people from committing further
> crimes? Is it to get revenge on the perpetrators? Is it to protect
> citizens from being harmed by the criminal? In this case, I think it
> is unlikely that the parents of Crown Shakur would harm the child of
> other parents. I also find it hard to believe that they would
> intentionally kill another child of their own. I think the system is
> failing here. These parents should be monitored by social services,
> and if they choose to have other children, should be guided as to how
> to raise a healthy child within the constraints of their beliefs.
>
> One final note: Consider an alternative situation: an infant gets a
> high fever, but is not taken to the hospital or given drugs because
> the parents are Christian Scientists, and do not believe in modern
> medicine. The baby dies. Have these parents committed murder?
>
> Rob
>
> ARTICLE TEXT
> ------------------------------------------
> WHEN Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed
> 3.5 pounds. His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple
> juice, were convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary
> manslaughter and cruelty.
> Skip to next paragraph
> Jacob Magraw-Mickelson
>
> This particular calamity at least the third such conviction of
> vegan parents in four years may be largely due to ignorance. But it
> should prompt frank discussion about nutrition.
>
> I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded
> that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and
> nourish a robust baby merely on foods from plants.
>
> Indigenous cuisines offer clues about what humans, naturally
> omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow: traditional
> vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs for
> complete protein, essential fats and vitamins. There are no vegan
> societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the
> long run.
>
> Protein deficiency is one danger of a vegan diet for babies.
> Nutritionists used to speak of proteins as "first class" (from meat,
> fish, eggs and milk) and "second class" (from plants), but today this
> is considered denigrating to vegetarians.
>
> The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins and fats
> to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino
> acids needed for life in the right ratio. This is not true of plant
> proteins, which are inferior in quantity and quality even soy.
>
> A vegan diet may lack vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable
> vitamins A and D, found in meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary
> minerals like calcium and zinc. When babies are deprived of all these
> nutrients, they will suffer from retarded growth, rickets and nerve
> damage.
>
> Responsible vegan parents know that breast milk is ideal. It contains
> many necessary components, including cholesterol (which babies use to
> make nerve cells) and countless immune and growth factors. When
> breastfeeding isn't possible, soy milk and fruit juice, even in
> seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a
> quality infant formula.
>
> Yet even a breast-fed baby is at risk. Studies show that vegan breast
> milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3 fat found
> in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA,
> vital as it is for eye and brain development.
>
> A vegan diet is equally dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers, who
> need plenty of protein and calcium. Too often, vegans turn to soy,
> which actually inhibits growth and reduces absorption of protein and
> minerals. That's why health officials in Britain, Canada and other
> countries express caution about soy for babies. (Not here, though
> perhaps because our farm policy is so soy-friendly.)
>
> Historically, diet honored tradition: we ate the foods that our
> mothers, and their mothers, ate. Now, your neighbor or sibling may be
> a meat-eater or vegetarian, may ferment his foods or eat them raw.
> This fragmentation of the American menu reflects admirable diversity
> and tolerance, but food is more important than fashion. Though it's
> not politically correct to say so, all diets are not created equal.
>
> An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in infancy may choose to
> get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from protein, calcium,
> cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not get the
> precious things they need to live and grow.
>
> Nina Planck is the author of "Real Food: What to Eat and Why."
>
>
> On May 22, 2007, at 3:27 PM, Christine Kapusky wrote:
>
> > Interesting...
> >
> > ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> > From: jjk514 Æ gmail.com
> > Date: May 22, 2007 10:56 AM
> > Subject: NYTimes.com: Death by Veganism
> > To: ckapoo Æ gmail.com
> >
> > [image: The New York Times]
> > [image: E-mail
> > This] *This page was sent to you by: * jjk514 Æ gmail.com
> >
> > Message from sender:
> > fyi.
> >
> > * OPINION * | May 21, 2007
> > * Op-Ed Contributor: Death by Veganism
> > > ex=3D1180497600&en=3Df83902b3c8513583&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1>
> > *
> > By NINA PLANCK
> > You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely on foods from
> > plants.
> >
> > [image: Most E-mailed]
> > 1. Op-Ed Contributor: Death by
> > Veganism > ex=3D1180497600&en=3Df83902b3c8513583&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1>
> > 2. This Is Your Life (and How You Tell
> > It) 22narr.html?
> > ex=3D1180497600&en=3D12d9da8976db7071&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1>
> > 3. Mysteries to Behold in the Dark Down Deep: Seadevils and Species
> > Unknown > ex=3D1180497600&en=3D1f342008210cb27f&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1>
> > 4. Books of The Times: Al Gore Speaks of a Nation in
> > Danger > ex=3D1180497600&en=3Db05d19a086e3f485&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1>
> > 5. Executive on a Mission: Saving the
> > Planet 22ander.html ?
> > ex=3D1180497600&en=3D64e3c95b9e4bc5cc&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1>
> >
> > =BB Go to Complete List mostemailed.html ?
> > type=3D1>
> >
> > Copyright 2007
> > The
> > New York
> > Times Company | Privacy
> > Policy
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > "Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other plans."
> > John
> > Lennon
>
>
Dave Morris
cell: 734-476-8769
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~thecat/
--Apple-Mail-42--140576542
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Content-Type: text/html;
charset=WINDOWS-1252
Interesting indeed. The argument I would make in response to the original
diet is that yes, it is hard to raise a child from scratch on a vegan diet,
and no you won't find any natural vegan cultures because they've lacked the
technology to do so. But as we sit here in the richest and most
technologically advanced nation on the planet , consuming vast amounts of
luxury depending on extremely complicated technologies, the point is that we
are now able to. More and more it is becoming easily possible for our society
to become vegan safely and responsibly. I wouldn't recommend veganism for
the poor, either individually or as a nation. Eat whatever you need to in
order to survive if surviving at all is what you're struggling to do.
Similarly I don't recommend a vegan diet for lions in the jungle- they do what
they're capable of, they don't know any better .=A0 But if you are rich,
educated, and capable, you should consider a vegan diet , or at least a diet
heading that direction, avoiding factory grown animal products, because you
can. Why cause unnecessary suffering if you don 't have to? It boils down to a
reasonable amount of effort and a reasonable amount of cost. If may family
were starving, I would kill any number of chickens to feed my hungry children.
I would kill cattle. I would kill people if necessary. If they were starving
and I had no other choice . But if it's a choice between vegan diet and getting
digital cable that month... I'd give up the digital cable. That's where many
of us are really at. Dave =A0 On May 23, 07, at 10:43 AM, Alyssa
Pozniak wrote: just fyi - the below post originally appeared in a public
health-related listserv i'm on and is in response to the Nina Planck
editorial. =A0 and just to clarify for us non-vegans out here who aren 't
familar w/ the specifics -- does a vegan diet for a newborn mean no mother's
breast milk?=A0 eliminating cow's milk (or other mammal's milk ) i understand,
but to not feed an infant breast milk as nature intended seems
counter-intuitive to the "mother earth" stance that often goes hand in hand w/
the vegan/vegetarian way of life (yes i understand there are exceptions - i'm
talking in general terms though).=A0 so i just wanted clarification from
vegans in the know=A0 (but i *don't* want to start a debate on whether it's
"good" vs. "bad"! :) =A0 Posted by: "Jason Ketola" keto0011 Æ
umn.edu Mon May=A021,=A02007 :48=A0pm (PST) Nina Planck's op-ed "Death
by Veganism" ironically fails to list any deaths or even instances of
ill-health resulting from well-planned vegan diets. To a vegan of eight
years myself, who's met hundreds of thriving vegan adults and children,
Planck's claims of the inadequacy of the vegan diet ring patently untrue.
It's worth interrogating Nina Planck's connection to the Weston Price
Foundation, which has a financial interest in disparaging veganism in favor
of "real milk" and the like. Not to mention her interest in selling a book on
that very topic. Jason =A0 =A0 On 5 /23/07, Robert Felty <
robfelty Æ gmail.com > wrote: Kapoo sent a link to an article which
I think is worthy of improvetheworld discussion. The text of the article and a
link to it are at the bottom. Here is my 2 cents : Interesting article, but
lacking in one very crucial aspect -- references. I have several books on
vegan nutrition which address issues of Vitamin B12 deficiency and lists way
in which it is possible to get the required nutrients. Certain types of Omega
3 fatty acids are very difficult to get as a vegan. However, one must also
keep in mind that comparisons between vegetarians and meat -eaters should be
made comparing average health of vegetarians to average health of meat-
eaters, and many such studies show vegetarians to be healthier overall than
omnivores. I would very highly recommend "Becoming Vegan"=A0=A0by Brenda
Davis and Vesanto Melina. It has lots of useful nutrition facts, cites many
studies in highly-regarded journals, and lists all references . In regards to
giving infants soy milk instead of formula , it is well known that this is a
bad idea, and most soymilks have a warning on the package that it should not
be used as infant formula . There are soy-based formulas though. Here's a link
to a page listing a variety of different formulas: http
://www.babycenter.com/refcap/baby/formulafeed/1334669.html I also read a
bit more about Crown Shakur on some other blogs . There were many atypical
circumstances in the case. The parents were a black, vegan couple in Georgia,
who gave birth at home , and were apparently also quite poor. I do think that
they probably made some mistakes, but from my cursory knowledge of the case ,
it does not seem that they intentionally killed their baby. I also think it is
nearly impossible to say "beyond the shadow of a doubt " that had they fed
their child differently, it would have lived . One of Clare's friend's sisters
recently lost a child. The child was about 3-4 weeks old, and was sleeping on
the father's chest . Apparently the father dozed off for a bit, and when he
awoke, the baby was cold and blue. I can only imagine how traumatic this could
be, and I cannot imagine having to go through a trial after such an event.
These parents did have to go through some sort of social services thing, but
they were not punished by law. The young and old are both very vulnerable,
and much more likely to die unexpectedly than those in the prime of their
lives. Unless there is reason to believe that the parents of Crown Shakur
really did not want children, I do not think that they should be viewed as
murderers, but rather as parents who just lost a child, and they should be
consoled instead of jailed. Some of this also boils down to philosophy about
the penal system. What is the role of punishment in the penal system? Is it
to deter people from committing further crimes? Is it to get revenge on the
perpetrators? Is it to protect citizens from being harmed by the criminal? In
this case, I think it is unlikely that the parents of Crown Shakur would harm
the child of other parents. I also find it hard to believe that they would
intentionally kill another child of their own. I think the system is failing
here. These parents should be monitored by social services , and if they choose
to have other children, should be guided as to how to raise a healthy child
within the constraints of their beliefs . One final note: Consider an
alternative situation: an infant gets a high fever, but is not taken to the
hospital or given drugs because the parents are Christian Scientists, and do
not believe in modern medicine. The baby dies. Have these parents committed
murder? Rob ARTICLE TEXT ------------------------------------------ WHEN
Crown Shakur died of starvation, he was 6 weeks old and weighed 3.5 pounds.
His vegan parents, who fed him mainly soy milk and apple juice, were
convicted in Atlanta recently of murder, involuntary manslaughter and cruelty
. Skip to next paragraph Jacob Magraw-Mickelson This particular calamity at
least the third such conviction of vegan parents in four years may be
largely due to ignorance. But it should prompt frank discussion about
nutrition. I was once a vegan. But well before I became pregnant, I concluded
that a vegan pregnancy was irresponsible. You cannot create and nourish a
robust baby merely on foods from plants. Indigenous cuisines offer clues
about what humans, naturally omnivorous, need to survive, reproduce and grow:
traditional vegetarian diets, as in India, invariably include dairy and eggs
for complete protein, essential fats and vitamins . There are no vegan
societies for a simple reason: a vegan diet is not adequate in the long run.
Protein deficiency is one danger of a vegan diet for babies. Nutritionists
used to speak of proteins as "first class" (from meat, fish, eggs and milk)
and "second class" (from plants), but today this is considered denigrating to
vegetarians. The fact remains, though, that humans prefer animal proteins
and fats to cereals and tubers, because they contain all the essential amino
acids needed for life in the right ratio. This is not true of plant proteins,
which are inferior in quantity and quality even soy. A vegan diet may lack
vitamin B12, found only in animal foods; usable vitamins A and D , found in
meat, fish, eggs and butter; and necessary minerals like calcium and zinc.
When babies are deprived of all these nutrients, they will suffer from
retarded growth, rickets and nerve damage . Responsible vegan parents know
that breast milk is ideal. It contains many necessary components, including
cholesterol (which babies use to make nerve cells) and countless immune and
growth factors . When breastfeeding isn't possible, soy milk and fruit juice ,
even in seemingly sufficient quantities, are not safe substitutes for a
quality infant formula. Yet even a breast -fed baby is at risk. Studies show
that vegan breast milk lacks enough docosahexaenoic acid, or DHA, the omega-3
fat found in fatty fish. It is difficult to overstate the importance of DHA,
vital as it is for eye and brain development. A vegan diet is equally
dangerous for weaned babies and toddlers, who need plenty of protein and
calcium. Too often, vegans turn to soy, which actually inhibits growth and
reduces absorption of protein and minerals. That's why health officials in
Britain, Canada and other countries express caution about soy for babies.
(Not here, though perhaps because our farm policy is so soy-friendly.)
Historically, diet honored tradition : we ate the foods that our mothers, and
their mothers, ate . Now, your neighbor or sibling may be a meat-eater or
vegetarian , may ferment his foods or eat them raw. This fragmentation of the
American menu reflects admirable diversity and tolerance, but food is more
important than fashion. Though it's not politically correct to say so, all
diets are not created equal. An adult who was well-nourished in utero and in
infancy may choose to get by on a vegan diet, but babies are built from
protein, calcium, cholesterol and fish oil. Children fed only plants will not
get the precious things they need to live and grow. Nina Planck is the
author of "Real Food: What to Eat and Why." On May 22, 2007, at 3:27 PM ,
Christine Kapusky wrote: > Interesting... > > ---------- Forwarded
message ---------- > From: jjk514 Æ gmail.com < jjk514 Æ
gmail.com > > Date: May 22, 2007 10:56 AM > Subject : NYTimes.com:
Death by Veganism > To: ckapoo Æ gmail.com >
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 =A0[image: The New York Times] <
http://www.nytimes.com/ > > [image: E -mail >
This]=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 *This page was sent to you by: * jjk514 Æ
gmail.com > > Message from sender : > fyi. > > * OPINION
*=A0=A0 | May 21, 2007 > * Op-Ed Contributor:=A0=A0Death by Veganism >
< http ://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html ? > ex
=3D1180497600&en=3Df83902b3c8513583&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1> >
* > By NINA PLANCK > You cannot create and nourish a robust baby merely
on foods from > plants. > > [image: Most E-mailed] > 1. Op-Ed
Contributor: Death by > Veganism < http
://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/21/opinion/21planck.html ? > ex
=3D1180497600&en=3Df83902b3c8513583&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1> >
2. This Is Your Life (and How You Tell > It)< http
://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/health/psychology/22narr.html ? > ;
ex=3D1180497600&en=3D12d9da8976db7071&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1> ;
> 3. Mysteries to Behold in the Dark Down Deep: Seadevils and Species >
Unknown< http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/science/22deep.html ? > ex
=3D1180497600&en=3D1f342008210cb27f&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1> >
4. Books of The Times: Al Gore Speaks of a Nation in > Danger <
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/books/22kaku.html ? > ex
=3D1180497600&en=3Db05d19a086e3f485&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1> >
5. Executive on a Mission: Saving the > Planet< http
://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/22/science/earth/22ander.html ? > ex
=3D1180497600&en=3D64e3c95b9e4bc5cc&ei=3D5070&emc=3Deta1> >
> =BB=A0=A0Go to Complete List < http
://www.nytimes.com/gst/mostemailed.html ? > type =3D1> >
>=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0=A0 Copyright 07 > < http
://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/copyright.html > The > New York
> Times Company < http://www.nytco.com/ > | Privacy > Policy <
http://www.nytimes.com/ref/membercenter/help/privacy.html > > > >
> -- > "Life is what happens to you when you're busy making other
plans." > John > Lennon Dave Morris cell: 734-476-8769
http://www-personal.umich.edu /~thecat/
--Apple-Mail-42--140576542--
|
