Message Number: 435
From: Yevgeniy Vorobeychik <yvorobey Æ umich.edu>
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 11:47:26 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Re: Those Using Babies as Sheilds (fwd)
Here are a couple of links that provide some useful information:

http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD122106
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html

The former is Syrian government media response to the crisis; the latter 
is a general myths and facts guide to the arab-israeli conflict. I am 
including these for both the historical as well as current perspective.

Here's an excellent editorial in Washington Post:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006...
.html

That's a must read.

I don't want to write elaborate essays defending Israel. Not yet, anyway. 
I (and every Israeli) agree that the death of innocent Lebanese civilians 
is a tragedy and it breaks my heart to hear about it. It also aggravates 
me a great deal when people put all the blame for these deaths squarely on 
Israel's shoulders.  A point that has been raised a number of times, but 
seems somehow not to catch is that Hezbollah hides its military arsenal in the 
civilian centers.  This is a brilliant strategy, as it essentially ensures 
that any attempt by Israel (or anyone else, for that matter) to diminish 
its military capabilities will inevitably result in civilian deaths.  So, 
when Hezbollah intentionally puts its civilians in harm's way, no one 
flinches. When Israel tries to defend itself, there is an outcry of war 
crimes.

Regarding the question of Israel using areal attacks vs. ground troops, it 
may be that Anthony is right. But that is unclear to me.  Recall that a 
year or two ago Israel attempted to root out terrorists in Jenin (in the 
operation that became known as the "massacre of Jenin").  It turned out 
that Israel chose in this case to fight house-to-house rather than use any 
air support at all, losing I think 15 of its soldiers in the process. 
About 50 Palestinians were also killed, almost all militants. The few 
civilians that were killed were used by the militants as human shields 
(seems to be a popular tactic for the terrorists) and were killed 
accidentally.  (I actually heard stories of Israeli soldiers being 
extremely disturbed by this phenomenon, as it presents a daunting moral 
dilemma).  So clearly Israel has in the past put much value on lives of 
civilians at great risk to its soldiers. I suspect that an important 
factor in limiting the ground troops in Lebanon is the one that Anthony 
also mentioned: Israel is trying to avoid at all costs having this war 
look like another occupation of Lebanon.  I suspect also that it is a part 
of Hezbollah's political strategy to force Israel to do just that: 
reoccupy Lebanon.  It has been losing popularity and political power since 
Lebanon had become democratic.	There has been tremendous pressure for it 
to disarm.  It needs to convince people that it is still a legitimate 
resistance movement, which has been more difficult to do since Israel had 
withdrawn from Lebanon.

Eugene

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, Anthony Nicholson wrote:

> I hope we can just all agree that the IDF is obviously not targeting civilian

> Lebanese on purpose... but I think the situation in southern Lebanon is not 
> as clear-cut as saying that they were warned to leave and they didn't, so 
> Israel is not responsible if civilians are caught in the cross-fire from this

> point on. A lot of people probably stayed put because of the unsafe road 
> conditions, both due to destruction by bombing and because of Israelis 
> mistaking civilian cars for Hezbollah members (which regrettably has 
> happened).
>
> Also, it seems the reason these sorts of mistakes like Kfar Cana are 
> happening is because the IDF wants to do most of the dirty work from the air,

> rather than on the ground. I obviously understand their reluctance to launch 
> a large ground invasion, because of the past history and because of the 
> increased number of Israeli casualties that would result. But at what point 
> are they just trading Israeli army members' lives for those of Lebanese 
> civilians?
>
> In my opinion, it is just as bad as what we have done in Iraq. It seems we 
> value American lives more than those of Iraqis, because we often prefer to 
> just bomb targets from the air--often causing "collateral damage" next 
> door--rather than go house to house. Even the smartest smart bomb is going to

> have unintended consequences when dropped in the middle of dense areas.
>
> -anthony
>
> Daniel Reeves wrote:
>> Thanks Eugene.  This topic in general is certainly worth a thread and if 
>> this is a controversial way to start one, all the better.
>> 
>> Yes, the perspective below is biased but I believe it's true that the 
>> Israeli army is not actively targeting civilians.  If you have a different 
>> opinion, speak up.
>> 
>> Here's some perspective from the other side, contributed by Uluc:
>> http://www.fair.org/index.php?page 21
>> 
>> I haven't vetted any of this very carefully -- just hoping to get the 
>> discussion started.
>> 
>> 
>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>> From: Yevgeniy Vorobeychik  
>> Subject: Those Using Babies as Sheilds (fwd)
>> 
>> Hey, guys. I am generally averse to spamming people with propaganda. 
>> However, I feel it my moral responsibility to disseminate this human story 
>> to contrast it with the increasing sense that Israeli army has no 
>> compunctions about civilian casualties you may be getting from the media 
>> coverage.  Do you think this topic in general is worth an improvetheworld 
>> thread?
>> 
>> Eugene
>> 
>> _________
>> 
>> Cry to those Using Babies as Sheilds
>> By
>> 
>> Naomi Ragen
>> 
>> My son is in the army. He is not the type at all, believe
>> me. Quiet, studious, a writer, a lover of Jewish history,
>> Talmud, ethics. He spent two years in a pre-army program in
>> the Galilee called Karmei Chayil. He made many good friends
>> there from all over the country, and now he and all his
>> friends are in the army. One of them I know well. A bit
>> chubby, with payot, and a great laugh. He and my son have
>> become like brothers. While both of them tried out for the
>> elite paratroopers unit, only he made it in. He and his
>> unit are the ones in Lebanon. They were there over a week,
>> fighting under horrific conditions, running out of food and
>> water. Even though the Israeli airforce dropped tons of
>> leaflets warning civilians to flee because they were in
>> terrorist territory and likely to be injured, they still
>> encountered civilians. My son spoke to his friend
>> yesterday,and this is how he described it:
>> "The village looked empty, and then we heard noises coming
>> from one of the houses, so we opened fire. But when we
>> went inside, we found two women and a child huddled in the
>> corner of the room. We were so relieved we hadn't hurt
>> them. We took up base in one of the empty houses. And then
>> all of a sudden, we came under intense fire. Three rockets
>> were fired at the house we were in. Only one managed to
>> destroy a wall, which fell on one of us, covering him in
>> white dust, but otherwise not hurting him. I spent the
>> whole time feeding bullets to my friend who was shooting
>> non-stop. We managed to killed 26 terrorists. Not one of
>> us was hurt. Our commanding officer kept walking around,
>> touching everybody on the shoulder, smiling and encouraging
>> us: "We're are better than they are. Don't worry." It
>> calmed us all down. And really, we were much better then
>> them. They are a lousy army. They only win when they hide
>> behind baby carriages."
>> 
>> Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of
>> the Israeli bomb dropped on Kfar Cana, killing many
>> civilians, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds
>> of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr.
>> Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to
>> leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing
>> rockets amidst civilians."
>> 
>> Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to
>> complain about civilian casualties, since all they have done
>> this entire war is target civilians. Every single one of the
>> more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched
>> into populated towns filled with women and children. Just
>> today, another suicide belt meant to kill civilians in
>> Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus. So
>> don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those
>> using your babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who
>> store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and private
>> homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the
>> backyards of your kindergartens and schools. Cry to the
>> heartless men who love death, and however many of their
>> troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as
>> long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and
>> children.
>> 
>> Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and
>> girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be
>> sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice
>> but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and
>> endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells
>> that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your
>> choice, and save your tears.
>> 
>> That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of
>> our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers,
>> not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part.
>> If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are
>> responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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