I hope we can just all agree that the IDF is obviously not targeting 
civilian Lebanese on purpose... but I think the situation in southern 
Lebanon is not as clear-cut as saying that they were warned to leave and 
they didn't, so Israel is not responsible if civilians are caught in the 
cross-fire from this point on. A lot of people probably stayed put 
because of the unsafe road conditions, both due to destruction by 
bombing and because of Israelis mistaking civilian cars for Hezbollah 
members (which regrettably has happened).

Also, it seems the reason these sorts of mistakes like Kfar Cana are 
happening is because the IDF wants to do most of the dirty work from the 
air, rather than on the ground. I obviously understand their reluctance 
to launch a large ground invasion, because of the past history and 
because of the increased number of Israeli casualties that would result. 
But at what point are they just trading Israeli army members' lives for 
those of Lebanese civilians?

In my opinion, it is just as bad as what we have done in Iraq. It seems 
we value American lives more than those of Iraqis, because we often 
prefer to just bomb targets from the air--often causing "collateral 
damage" next door--rather than go house to house. Even the smartest 
smart bomb is going to have unintended consequences when dropped in the 
middle of dense areas.

-anthony

Daniel Reeves wrote:
> Thanks Eugene.  This topic in general is certainly worth a thread and if 
> this is a controversial way to start one, all the better.
> 
> Yes, the perspective below is biased but I believe it's true that the 
> Israeli army is not actively targeting civilians.  If you have a 
> different opinion, speak up.
> 
> Here's some perspective from the other side, contributed by Uluc:
> http://www.fair.org/index.php?page 21
> 
> I haven't vetted any of this very carefully -- just hoping to get the 
> discussion started.
> 
> 
> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> From: Yevgeniy Vorobeychik  
> Subject: Those Using Babies as Sheilds (fwd)
> 
> Hey, guys. I am generally averse to spamming people with propaganda. 
> However, I feel it my moral responsibility to disseminate this human 
> story to contrast it with the increasing sense that Israeli army has no 
> compunctions about civilian casualties you may be getting from the media 
> coverage.  Do you think this topic in general is worth an 
> improvetheworld thread?
> 
> Eugene
> 
> _________
> 
> Cry to those Using Babies as Sheilds
> By
> 
> Naomi Ragen
> 
> My son is in the army. He is not the type at all, believe
> me. Quiet, studious, a writer, a lover of Jewish history,
> Talmud, ethics. He spent two years in a pre-army program in
> the Galilee called Karmei Chayil. He made many good friends
> there from all over the country, and now he and all his
> friends are in the army. One of them I know well. A bit
> chubby, with payot, and a great laugh. He and my son have
> become like brothers. While both of them tried out for the
> elite paratroopers unit, only he made it in. He and his
> unit are the ones in Lebanon. They were there over a week,
> fighting under horrific conditions, running out of food and
> water. Even though the Israeli airforce dropped tons of
> leaflets warning civilians to flee because they were in
> terrorist territory and likely to be injured, they still
> encountered civilians. My son spoke to his friend
> yesterday,and this is how he described it:
> "The village looked empty, and then we heard noises coming
> from one of the houses, so we opened fire. But when we
> went inside, we found two women and a child huddled in the
> corner of the room. We were so relieved we hadn't hurt
> them. We took up base in one of the empty houses. And then
> all of a sudden, we came under intense fire. Three rockets
> were fired at the house we were in. Only one managed to
> destroy a wall, which fell on one of us, covering him in
> white dust, but otherwise not hurting him. I spent the
> whole time feeding bullets to my friend who was shooting
> non-stop. We managed to killed 26 terrorists. Not one of
> us was hurt. Our commanding officer kept walking around,
> touching everybody on the shoulder, smiling and encouraging
> us: "We're are better than they are. Don't worry." It
> calmed us all down. And really, we were much better then
> them. They are a lousy army. They only win when they hide
> behind baby carriages."
> 
> Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of
> the Israeli bomb dropped on Kfar Cana, killing many
> civilians, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds
> of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr.
> Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to
> leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing
> rockets amidst civilians."
> 
> Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to
> complain about civilian casualties, since all they have done
> this entire war is target civilians. Every single one of the
> more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched
> into populated towns filled with women and children. Just
> today, another suicide belt meant to kill civilians in
> Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus. So
> don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those
> using your babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who
> store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and private
> homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the
> backyards of your kindergartens and schools. Cry to the
> heartless men who love death, and however many of their
> troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as
> long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and
> children.
> 
> Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and
> girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be
> sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice
> but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and
> endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells
> that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your
> choice, and save your tears.
> 
> That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of
> our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers,
> not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part.
> If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are
> responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
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