X-Spam-Status: No, score=-3.3 required=5.0 tests=AWL,BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.2.2 Sender: -3.3 (spamval) -- NONE Return-Path: Received: from smtp.eecs.umich.edu (smtp.eecs.umich.edu [141.213.4.43]) by boston.eecs.umich.edu (8.12.10/8.13.0) with ESMTP id l7KEKLnd005506 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:20:22 -0400 Received: from eyewitness.mr.itd.umich.edu (mx.umich.edu [141.211.176.131]) by smtp.eecs.umich.edu (8.13.8/8.13.6) with ESMTP id l7KEK5o6018640 for ; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:20:14 -0400 Received: FROM newman.eecs.umich.edu (newman.eecs.umich.edu [141.213.4.11]) BY eyewitness.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 46C9A2D6.76DA9.32415 ; 20 Aug 2007 10:19:02 -0400 Received: from boston.eecs.umich.edu (boston.eecs.umich.edu [141.213.4.61]) by newman.eecs.umich.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l7KEGN8o025476 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL); Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:16:23 -0400 Received: from boston.eecs.umich.edu (localhost.eecs.umich.edu [127.0.0.1]) by boston.eecs.umich.edu (8.12.10/8.13.0) with ESMTP id l7KEGfnd005330 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO); Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:16:42 -0400 Received: from localhost (dreeves Æ localhost) by boston.eecs.umich.edu (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id l7KEGfKU005327; Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:16:41 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: boston.eecs.umich.edu: dreeves owned process doing -bs X-X-Sender: dreeves Æ boston.eecs.umich.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.2 (2007-07-23) on smtp.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.1, clamav-milter version 0.91.1 on smtp.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.1, clamav-milter version 0.91.1 on newman.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Date: Mon, 20 Aug 2007 10:16:41 -0400 (EDT) To: improvetheworld Æ umich.edu cc: reeves-hayos Æ umich.edu, reeves-kalkman Æ umich.edu From: Daniel Reeves Subject: mind the gap We've been debating this essay http://www.paulgraham.com/gap.html and I thought I'd move it to improvetheworld... I'll start: Graham is so right! The income gap between the rich and the poor is wonderful! Actually it started more as a debate about the nature of capitalism and interest ("why should money 'grow'?"). Here was the gist: * [the economy] is a zero-sum game, isn't it? - no * those earning money are taking it away, even if only indirectly, from other people, no? - no, not if you think in terms of wealth (wealth = stuff you want, money = way to transfer wealth) * Or am I totally simplifying the haves vs. the have-nots with my pie metaphor? - yes, that's precisely the Daddy Model of Wealth! * Is it THEORETICALLY possible for no one to owe any money at all in this world, i.e., that everyone just has money that "grows"? Or does money only grow if it is taken away from others? - You're right, not possible, but for the opposite reason of what you seem to be suggesting. You grow money by giving it to someone (lending it), not by taking it away. It even got a bit heated, along the lines of "Trixie, I don't think it's right for you to lash out against capitalistic/yootlicious ideas without grokking the answers to your questions [above]". Oh, and I offered a yootle to the first person who could answer the quasiphilosophical question why money *should* grow, with the hint that it has to do with human mortality. I believe that's the only reason that holds in all circumstances. In any case, Trixie wanted to resume the debate and this is clearly the place to do it! DO NOT CHANGE THE SUBJECT LINE WHEN YOU REPLY (so it's easy for those not interested in this debate to delete the whole thread). Ok, go! Danny -- http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves - - search://"Daniel Reeves" "Everything that can be invented has been invented." -- Charles H. Duell, Commissioner, U.S. Office of Patents, 1899.