--0-1453934127-1151651070=:35565
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good points, Monica! This is why it only makes sense to me for a family or a
couple or a close group of friends or a group of co-workers (as long as you 're
sure none of them are rapists! :-)) to use the system. Does Bethany have to
go with the lowest bidder though? Can't she skip the "rapist's" offer and pay
more for better service just like we can choose not to shop at Walmart?
----- Original Message ----
From: Monica Stephens
To: Lisa Hsu
Cc: Daniel Reeves ; improvetheworld Æ umich.edu; Michael Schwarz ;
David Pennock ; Yiling Chen ; Daniel Reeves ; yootopia -discuss Æ
yahoo-inc.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 11:08:05 PM
Subject: Re: Fairer Favors
I only felt comfortable bidding on bethany's airport trip after I e-mailed her
first. I didn't want to force her (through underbidding everybody else ) to
make an economic decision she was not socially comfortable with, and I think
that's my largest qualm with using this system.
I don't see the value of all airport rides as the same. If I were looking for
a ride to the airport, and my partner bid an exorbitant amount of yootles
(i.e. Danny's Y$2000) to fly here and drive me to the airport, I would want to
discourage others from underbidding him in the auction. There is a value
added from spending the 30 min. drive time with him. After all, if I then
owed Y$2000, and he had a 2000 yootle surplus, it would be in my best interest
to immediately start charging yootles for things I usually do (cooking ,
cleaning, dishes, backrubs, etc=E2 =A6). I would probably make up the
difference in less than 30 days, but I'd certainly piss him off in the
process. Not only would he have to fly to Michigan for 30 minutes of my time,
but he'd then have to deal with price gouging for a back rub at 1:30 am.
So, back to Bethany's trip to the airport. What if a rapist bid 1 yootle to
drive her to the airport? It would be like the walmartization of the yootle
system--one could undercut everybody else, economically force her to buy their
service, then provide a crappy service that hurts everybody in the long -run.
-Monica
On 6/29/06, Lisa Hsu wrote:
the thing that really sold me on the yootles idea is the anecdote danny had in
his faq from dave...that sometimes he and exes have been at odds over something
, and he "won" the argument when it really mattered much less to him than her,
whatever it was. i think there is always room for spontaneity/generousity ,
but there are times where one of us wants something (pizza) and another wants
something else (thai food) and we need some medium of arbitration ...so i think
it would be cool for my fiance and i to try yootles.
a concern though, that i didn't think of until i saw melanie's email and danny
's email, is that then you might feel you get "owed" yootles for being generous
. like, if one day i just felt like making him his favorite food, and he
didn't act sufficiently grateful ;), then i'd feel like he should have given
me a bunch of yootles...hmmm...and eventually i might stop offering
spontaneous gestures...??
i'm just thinking out loud here.
i used to be concise and eloquent, before i became a full time engineer in
college . somehow, james has managed to keep his linguistic gifts, lucky him
:).
lisa
On 6/29/06, Daniel Reeves wrote:
I'm getting responses offline indicating mass misunderstanding of
Bethany's yootles mechanism. I encourage you all to spam the group
(reply-all) since it's really no problem for people to just ignore/delete
the whole thread (as long as you don't change the subject line).
The main question is "what good is a yootle?" The answer is, as
established by precedent, about a fiftieth of a ride to the airport.
Yootles are not meant to be exchanged for money. Nonetheless, if you
acquire yootles you will, in a real sense, get positive utility out of
them. In fact, I personally guarantee it. If you can't find anything
else to do with them I will give you cash for them. Seriously, they're
very useful to me for things like influencing family decisions or getting
out of doing the dishes. Or getting out of tasks my boss assigns (I kid
you not -- ask him; he's cc'd). Which perhaps means I shouldn't be
allowed to buy yootles -- that question is still under debate. The whole
yootles thing is still brand new. It would be great to get input from you
all.
The other question about Bethany's airport auction people are asking is,
why are people who aren't even in Michigan bidding thousands of yootles?
Yes, it would be very dumb for me to fly to Detroit to take Bethany to the
airport to fly to New York to visit me. But my bid just reflects that if
for some crazy hypothetical reason she needed one of us to drive her at
any cost, that's roughly what the cost to me would be. The auction
mechanism now uses that information to decide that, yes, it would be dumb
for Danny to do it! And, as you can see, I'm fortunately losing the
auction.
One anonymous person (ok, fine, my grandfather) has opined that this is an
awful idea and that people should arrange exchanges of favors with no
explicit tracking system. The yootles system, he says, undermines the
spirit of magnanimity in favor-giving and fairness in decision-making and
is bad for society.
How's that for a gauntlet throwdown? Let's hear some side-taking...
Danny
--- \/ FROM Daniel Reeves AT 06.06.29 12:13 (Today) \/ ---
> Oh, wow, airport rides are a great example. I've more than once wished I
> could respond along these lines:
> "I could but it's at a bad time. But I'd rather take you than leave
> you high and dry. So, um, could I just pay for your cab?"
> But of course that's not an option.
>
> So, yes, we're making far from socially optimal decisions about rides to the
> airport. Bethany's idea to auction off the favor is a really good one!
>
> If you could humor us and put in a bid even if you can't realistically do
it,
> that would really help get a feel for how this system might work.
> Like I put in Y$2000 estimating that's how much it would cost to get a last
> minute flight to detroit, rent a car, and drive Bethany to the airport.
>
> Ooh, and let me sweeten the deal: if you take Bethany to the airport you
can
> use her car while she's gone. It's technically still my car, so I can say
> that. :)
>
> Danny
>
> --- \/ FROM bethany soule AT 06.06.29 08:35 (Today) \/ ---
>
>> Inasmuch as fairer favor tracking and better group decision making
>> improve the world, I'd like to open this up for discussion: Can
>> people make better decisions when they can explicitly compare their
>> utilities for the different options?
>>
>> Or, more specifically, can I identify from among my friends, who would
>> least mind taking me to the airport tomorrow? Let's find out:
>>
>> http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab
>> Or the view-only version since the above is browser-picky:
>> http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab.html
>>
>> (Getting 50 yootles should be plenty to get your own ride to the
>> airport from me or others later. More at yootles.com.)
>>
>> Bethany
>>
>
>
--
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves - - search://"Daniel Reeves"
"Life may have no meaning -- or even worse, it may have a meaning of
which I disapprove."
--0-1453934127-1151651070=:35565
Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Good points, Monica! This is why it only makes sense to me for a
family or a couple or a close group of friends or a group of co-workers (as
long as you're sure none of them are rapists! :-)) to use the system. Does
Bethany have to go with the lowest bidder though ? Can't she skip the
"rapist's" offer and pay more for better service just like we can choose not
to shop at Walmart?
----- Original Message ---- From: Monica Stephens <mstephens Æ
gmail.com> To: Lisa Hsu <hsul Æ eecs.umich.edu> Cc: Daniel Reeves
<dreeves Æ umich.edu>; improvetheworld Æ umich.edu; Michael
Schwarz <schwarz.m Æ gmail.com>; David Pennock <pennockd Æ
yahoo-inc.com>; Yiling Chen <cheny Æ yahoo-inc.com>; Daniel
Reeves <dreeves Æ yahoo-inc .com>; yootopia-discuss Æ
yahoo-inc.com Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 :08:05 PM Subject: Re: Fairer
Favors
I only felt comfortable bidding on bethany 's airport trip after I e-mailed
her first. I didn't want to force her (through underbidding everybody else)
to make an economic decision she was not socially comfortable with, and I
think that's my largest qualm with using this system.
I don't see the value of all airport rides as the same. If I were
looking for a ride to the airport, and my partner bid an exorbitant amount of
yootles (i.e. Danny's Y$2000) to fly here and drive me to the airport , I would
want to discourage others from underbidding him in the auction . There is a
value added from spending the 30 min. drive time with him. After all, if I
then owed Y$2000, and he had a 2000 yootle surplus, it would be in my best
interest to immediately start charging yootles for things I usually do
(cooking, cleaning, dishes , backrubs, etc=E2 =A6). I would probably make
up the difference in less than 30 days, but I'd certainly piss him off in the
process . Not only would he have to fly to Michigan for 30 minutes of my
time, but
he'd then have to deal with price gouging for a back rub at 1:30 am.
So, back to Bethany's trip to the airport. What if a rapist bid 1 yootle
to drive her to the airport? It would be like the walmartization of the
yootle system--one could undercut everybody else, economically force her to
buy their service, then provide a crappy service that hurts everybody in the
long-run.
-Monica
On 6/29/06, Lisa Hsu < hsul Æ eecs.umich.edu > wrote:
the thing that really sold me on the yootles idea is the anecdote danny had
in his faq from dave...that sometimes he and exes have been at odds over
something, and he "won" the argument when it really mattered much less to him
than her, whatever it was. i think there is always room for spontaneity
/generousity, but there are times where one of us wants something (pizza) and
another wants something else (thai food) and we need some medium of
arbitration...so i think it would be cool for my fiance and i to try yootles .
a concern though, that i didn't think of until i saw melanie 's email and
danny's email, is that then you might feel you get "owed" yootles for being
generous. like, if one day i just felt like making him his favorite food, and
he didn't act sufficiently grateful ;), then i'd feel like he should have
given me a bunch of yootles...hmmm...and eventually i might stop offering
spontaneous gestures...?? i'm just thinking out loud
here. i used to be concise and eloquent, before i became a full time
engineer in college. somehow, james has managed to keep his linguistic gifts,
lucky him :).
lisa
On 6/29/06, Daniel Reeves < dreeves Æ umich.edu > wrote:
I'm getting responses offline indicating mass misunderstanding of Bethany's
yootles mechanism. I encourage you all to spam the group (reply-all) since
it's really no problem for people to just ignore/delete the whole thread (as
long as you don't change the subject line). The main question is "what good
is a yootle?" The answer is, as established by precedent , about a fiftieth
of a ride to the airport. Yootles are not meant to be exchanged for money.
Nonetheless, if you acquire yootles you will, in a real sense, get positive
utility out of them. ;In fact, I personally guarantee it. If you can't
find anything else to do with them I will give you cash for them. Seriously ,
they're very useful to me for things like influencing family decisions or
getting
out of doing the dishes. Or getting out of tasks my boss assigns (I kid you
not -- ask him; he's cc'd). Which perhaps means I shouldn't be allowed to
buy yootles -- that question is still under debate. The whole yootles thing
is still brand new. It would be great to get input from you all. The other
question about Bethany's airport auction people are asking is, why are people
who aren't even in Michigan bidding thousands of yootles? Yes, it would be
very dumb for me to fly to Detroit to take Bethany to the airport to fly to
New York to visit me. But my bid just reflects that if for some crazy
hypothetical reason she needed one of us to drive her at any cost, that's
roughly what the cost to me would be. The auction mechanism now uses that
information to decide that, yes, it would be dumb for Danny to do it! And,
as you can see, I'm fortunately
losing the auction. One anonymous person (ok, fine, my grandfather ) has
opined that this is an awful idea and that people should arrange exchanges of
favors with no explicit tracking system. The yootles system, he says,
undermines the spirit of magnanimity in favor-giving and fairness in
decision-making and is bad for society. How 's that for a gauntlet throwdown?
Let's hear some side-taking.. . Danny --- \/ FROM Daniel Reeves AT
06.06.29 12 :13 (Today) \/ --- > Oh, wow, airport rides are a great
example. I've more than once wished I > could respond along these lines:
> "I could but it's at a bad time. But I'd rather take you than leave
> you high and dry . So, um, could I just pay for your cab?" > But of
course that's not an option. > > So, yes, we're making far from socially
optimal
decisions about rides to the > airport. Bethany's idea to auction off the
favor is a really good one! > > If you could humor us and put in a bid
even if you can't realistically do it, > that would really help get a feel
for how this system might work. > Like I put in Y$2000 estimating that's
how much it would cost to get a last > minute flight to detroit, rent a
car, and drive Bethany to the airport . > > Ooh, and let me sweeten the
deal: if you take Bethany to the airport you can > use her car while she's
gone. ; It's technically still my car, so I can say > that. :) > ;
> Danny > > --- \/ FROM bethany soule AT 06 .06.29 08:35 (Today)
\/ --- > >> Inasmuch as fairer favor tracking and better group
decision making >> improve the world, I'd like to open this up for
discussion: Can >> ; people make
better decisions when they can explicitly compare their >> utilities
for the different options? >> >> Or, more specifically , can I
identify from among my friends, who would >> least mind taking me to
the airport tomorrow? Let's find out: >> >>
http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi -cab >> Or the view-only
version since the above is browser-picky: >> http://www
.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab.html >> >> (Getting 50 yootles
should be plenty to get your own ride to the >> airport from me or
others later. More at yootles.com.) >> >> Bethany >> >
> -- http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves - -
;search://"Daniel Reeves" "Life may have no meaning -- or even worse , it may
have a meaning of which I disapprove."
--0-1453934127-1151651070=:35565--
|
