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I see it being useful in some situations and "undermining the magnanimity in
favor-giving" in others. It could take the romance out of nice spontaneous
favors between couples or friends like a back rub, for instance, like Cam said.
I think it's more useful for coming to an agreement about something that all
parties are responsible for, like a family having to do their dishes each night
or any other household duty or maybe a group going on vacation together and
needing to make arrangements, etc. Taking someone to the airport, having them
over for dinner, giving someone a back rub, paying for a dinner or dessert out
- these are all things that should be left to random and unspoken trade-offs of
being generous and doing favors.
"So and so had us over for dinner last month, so we should invite them this
coming weekend". Not, "We paid so and so 20 yootles to have us over for dinner
and it's been a month, so we better have them over to zero out our balance".
There's no generosity there - it's equivalent to paying a random store clerk
you don't know for the groceries you want. Even though people keep it even for
the most part, you don't want to act like you need currency to cook your
friends a meal. The giving of rides to the airport when each party needs it IS
the currency and the cooking of meals for each other IS the currency there.
It does make sense, however, with daily reponsibilities: "I'll pay you 10
yootles to do the dishes for me tonight since I really need to catch up on all
my emails from Danny about yootles :-)." Then a month later, "Can I take care
of renewing our car insurance for 10 yootles to zero out my balance?" Most
couples have already established what they feel is an equal distribution of
chores, but there are some things that come up that neither party normally does
or wants to do and that's where yootles seem handy to me.
We already have a system for society at large - money, so yootles seems best
for small groups of people that share responsibilities in life - those
responsibilities can be doled out based on true utility. If every little thing
was a trading of yootles, life would seem a little less loving and generous
among your closest family and friends.
Melanie (Danny's sister)
----- Original Message ----
From: Daniel Reeves
To: improvetheworld Æ umich.edu
Cc: Michael Schwarz ; David Pennock ; Yiling Chen ; Daniel Reeves ;
yootopia-discuss Æ yahoo-inc.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:26:16 PM
Subject: Re: Fairer Favors
I'm getting responses offline indicating mass misunderstanding of
Bethany's yootles mechanism. I encourage you all to spam the group
(reply-all) since it's really no problem for people to just ignore/delete
the whole thread (as long as you don't change the subject line).
The main question is "what good is a yootle?" The answer is, as
established by precedent, about a fiftieth of a ride to the airport.
Yootles are not meant to be exchanged for money. Nonetheless, if you
acquire yootles you will, in a real sense, get positive utility out of
them. In fact, I personally guarantee it. If you can't find anything
else to do with them I will give you cash for them. Seriously, they're
very useful to me for things like influencing family decisions or getting
out of doing the dishes. Or getting out of tasks my boss assigns (I kid
you not -- ask him; he's cc'd). Which perhaps means I shouldn't be
allowed to buy yootles -- that question is still under debate. The whole
yootles thing is still brand new. It would be great to get input from you
all.
The other question about Bethany's airport auction people are asking is,
why are people who aren't even in Michigan bidding thousands of yootles?
Yes, it would be very dumb for me to fly to Detroit to take Bethany to the
airport to fly to New York to visit me. But my bid just reflects that if
for some crazy hypothetical reason she needed one of us to drive her at
any cost, that's roughly what the cost to me would be. The auction
mechanism now uses that information to decide that, yes, it would be dumb
for Danny to do it! And, as you can see, I'm fortunately losing the
auction.
One anonymous person (ok, fine, my grandfather) has opined that this is an
awful idea and that people should arrange exchanges of favors with no
explicit tracking system. The yootles system, he says, undermines the
spirit of magnanimity in favor-giving and fairness in decision-making and
is bad for society.
How's that for a gauntlet throwdown? Let's hear some side-taking...
Danny
--- \/ FROM Daniel Reeves AT 06.06.29 12:13 (Today) \/ ---
> Oh, wow, airport rides are a great example. I've more than once wished I
> could respond along these lines:
> "I could but it's at a bad time. But I'd rather take you than leave
> you high and dry. So, um, could I just pay for your cab?"
> But of course that's not an option.
>
> So, yes, we're making far from socially optimal decisions about rides to the
> airport. Bethany's idea to auction off the favor is a really good one!
>
> If you could humor us and put in a bid even if you can't realistically do it,
> that would really help get a feel for how this system might work.
> Like I put in Y$2000 estimating that's how much it would cost to get a last
> minute flight to detroit, rent a car, and drive Bethany to the airport.
>
> Ooh, and let me sweeten the deal: if you take Bethany to the airport you can
> use her car while she's gone. It's technically still my car, so I can say
> that. :)
>
> Danny
>
> --- \/ FROM bethany soule AT 06.06.29 08:35 (Today) \/ ---
>
>> Inasmuch as fairer favor tracking and better group decision making
>> improve the world, I'd like to open this up for discussion: Can
>> people make better decisions when they can explicitly compare their
>> utilities for the different options?
>>
>> Or, more specifically, can I identify from among my friends, who would
>> least mind taking me to the airport tomorrow? Let's find out:
>>
>> http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab
>> Or the view-only version since the above is browser-picky:
>> http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab.html
>>
>> (Getting 50 yootles should be plenty to get your own ride to the
>> airport from me or others later. More at yootles.com.)
>>
>> Bethany
>>
>
>
--
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves - - search://"Daniel Reeves"
"Life may have no meaning -- or even worse, it may have a meaning of
which I disapprove."
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I see it being useful in some situations and "undermining the
magnanimity in favor-giving" in others. It could take the romance out of nice
spontaneous favors between couples or friends like a back rub, for instance,
like Cam said. I think it's more useful for coming to an agreement about
something that all parties are responsible for, like a family having to do
their dishes each night or any other household duty or maybe a group going on
vacation together and needing to make arrangements, etc. Taking someone to the
airport, having them over for dinner, giving someone a back rub, paying for a
dinner or dessert out - these are all things that should be left to random and
unspoken trade-offs of
being generous and doing favors.
"So and so had us over for dinner last month, so we should invite them this
coming weekend". Not, "We paid so and so 20 yootles to have us over for dinner
and it's been a month, so we better have them over to zero out our balance".
There's no generosity there - it's equivalent to paying a random store clerk
you don't know for the groceries you want. Even though people keep it even for
the most part, you don't want to act like you need currency to cook your
friends a meal. The giving of rides to the airport when each party needs it IS
the currency and the cooking of meals for each other IS the currency there.
It does make sense, however, with daily reponsibilities: "I'll pay you 10
yootles to do the dishes for me tonight since I really need to catch up on all
my emails from Danny about yootles :-)." Then a month later, "Can I take care
of renewing our car insurance for 10 yootles to zero out my balance?" Most
couples have already established what they feel is an equal distribution of
chores, but there are some things that come up that neither party normally does
or wants to do and that's where yootles seem handy to me.
We already have a system for society at large - money, so yootles seems best
for small groups of people that share responsibilities in life - those
responsibilities can be doled out based on true utility. If every little thing
was a trading of yootles, life would seem a little less loving and generous
among your closest family and friends.
Melanie (Danny's sister)
----- Original Message ---- From: Daniel Reeves <dreeves Æ
umich.edu> To: improvetheworld Æ umich.edu Cc: Michael Schwarz
<schwarz.m Æ gmail.com>; David Pennock <pennockd Æ
yahoo-inc.com>; Yiling Chen <cheny Æ yahoo-inc.com>; Daniel
Reeves <dreeves Æ yahoo-inc.com>; yootopia-discuss Æ
yahoo-inc.com Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006 2:26:16 PM Subject: Re: Fairer
Favors
I'm getting responses offline indicating mass misunderstanding of Bethany's
yootles mechanism. I encourage you all to spam the group (reply-all) since
it's really no problem for people to just ignore/delete the whole thread (as
long as you don't change the subject line). The main question is "what good is
a yootle?" The answer is, as established by precedent, about a fiftieth of a
ride to the airport. Yootles are not meant to be exchanged for money.
Nonetheless, if you acquire yootles you will, in a real sense, get positive
utility out of them. In fact, I personally guarantee it. If you can't find
anything else to do with them I will give you cash for them. Seriously,
they're very useful to me for things like influencing family decisions or
getting out of doing the dishes. Or getting out of tasks my boss assigns (I
kid you not -- ask him; he's
cc'd). Which perhaps means I shouldn't be allowed to buy yootles -- that
question is still under debate. The whole yootles thing is still brand new.
It would be great to get input from you all. The other question about
Bethany's airport auction people are asking is, why are people who aren't even
in Michigan bidding thousands of yootles? Yes, it would be very dumb for me to
fly to Detroit to take Bethany to the airport to fly to New York to visit me.
But my bid just reflects that if for some crazy hypothetical reason she needed
one of us to drive her at any cost, that's roughly what the cost to me would
be. The auction mechanism now uses that information to decide that, yes, it
would be dumb for Danny to do it! And, as you can see, I'm fortunately losing
the auction. One anonymous person (ok, fine, my grandfather) has opined that
this is an awful
idea and that people should arrange exchanges of favors with no explicit
tracking system. The yootles system, he says, undermines the spirit of
magnanimity in favor-giving and fairness in decision-making and is bad for
society. How's that for a gauntlet throwdown? Let's hear some side-taking...
Danny --- \/ FROM Daniel Reeves AT 06.06.29 12:13 (Today) \/ --- > Oh,
wow, airport rides are a great example. I've more than once wished I >
could respond along these lines: > "I could but it's at a bad time. But
I'd rather take you than leave > you high and dry. So, um, could I just
pay for your cab?" > But of course that's not an option. > > So, yes,
we're making far from socially optimal decisions about rides to the >
airport. Bethany's idea to auction off the favor is a really good
one! > > If you could humor us and put in a bid even if you can't
realistically do it, > that would really help get a feel for how this
system might work. > Like I put in Y$2000 estimating that's how much it
would cost to get a last > minute flight to detroit, rent a car, and drive
Bethany to the airport. > > Ooh, and let me sweeten the deal: if you
take Bethany to the airport you can > use her car while she's gone. It's
technically still my car, so I can say > that. :) > > Danny > >
--- \/ FROM bethany soule AT 06.06.29 08:35 (Today) \/ --- > >>
Inasmuch as fairer favor tracking and better group decision making >>
improve the world, I'd like to open this up for discussion: Can >>
people make better decisions when they can explicitly compare their >>
utilities for the different
options? >> >> Or, more specifically, can I identify from among
my friends, who would >> least mind taking me to the airport tomorrow?
Let's find out: >> >>
http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab >> Or the view-only
version since the above is browser-picky: >>
http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab.html >> >> (Getting
50 yootles should be plenty to get your own ride to the >> airport from
me or others later. More at yootles.com.) >> >> Bethany >>
> > -- http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves - - search://"Daniel
Reeves" "Life may have no
meaning -- or even worse, it may have a meaning of which I disapprove."
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