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Date: Mon, 07 Nov 2005 14:48:16 -0500
To: mjste &AElig umich.edu, vfossum &AElig eecs.umich.edu, jmickens &AElig eecs.umich.edu,         improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu
From: Andrew Reeves <andrew.reeves &AElig wayne.edu>
Subject: Feminism debate
Status: O

   I apologize for any perceived personal insult in my last message. 
There was no intent to offend Michelle personally; actually, I thought 
that she was quoting some unidentified original source. On the other 
hand, the valiant efforts of Victoria and others to portray this as 
nothing but a deep psychoanalytic explanation for anorexia, bulimia and 
other eating disorders is totally off base and flatly contradicts the 
very wording of Michelle's remarks--"..yet another MEANS of encouraging 
women to take up less space in the world" [emphasis added]. In other 
words, female physical build and/or fashion trends, obviously dictated 
or inspired by men, are a plot in the competition for cubic footage in 
the increasingly crowded inhabitable sphere of the planet. This is how 
I understood the remark and in this sense, and in this context, I am 
afraid that I have to stand by my original opinion of this view.
   To answer Victoria's question of whether I was ever "coerced" to 
have sexual intercourse, the answer is not easy: certainly, in the 
bland anatomic/physical sense, NO, but that is really obvious given 
the physiologic realities of the male body. I was, a few times in my 
life, placed in situations that amounted to virtual psychologic 
coercion--and I successfully extricated myself every time. To tell you
quite frankly, extreme forwardness of women has (or had) an anti-
aphrodisiac effect on me and we European males of my generation were 
quite accustomed to, and even learned to like, a certain bashfulness 
in women. At the risk of being frivolous, let me quote an old joke 
that illustrates the situation.
   What is the difference between a DIPLOMAT and a LADY?
If a diplomat says YES, he means MAYBE. If he says MAYBE, he means NO.
If he says NO, he is no diplomat. 
If a lady says NO, she means MAYBE. If she says MAYBE, she means YES.
If she says YES, she is no lady.
   Perhaps a very poor joke, but a good indicator of the mentality 
we grew up in, and perhaps it also gives a flicker of explanation for 
the spurious McKinnon quote because a certain gentle but firm 
determinedness on the part of the male in overcoming the probably 
phoney female hesitation in the last phase of foreplay was not al all 
considered bad form in that culture.  
   In closing, let me salute James Mickens whose comments were in my 
view the best in the lot in this whole debate.
   DANNY'S GRANDPA ANDREW