--0-952977834-1131316310=:10266
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Ok, I have something to chime in about. I'm not following every response
either, but those that are short enough to read somewhat quickly. Like my mom,
I get uninterested when I have to read a whole book (funny, cause I've been
known to write ridiculously long emails when it's something I have a lot to say
about - so I don't blame anyone). In respone to one of Victoria's comments:
"women are constantly told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less than what they
are or could be, to deny themselves, not to outdo others."
I personally can't think of any time in my life where I've gotten that message.
I've always been encouraged to do my best at everything. If anyone that grew
up with me can think of anything that contradicts that, let me know. If there
are women that have gotten that message, I can see that it would mess with them
psychologically and could lead to a need to exert control of something in their
life and anorexia is a false feeling of control that unfortunately gets turned
to. Out of all the people that I know personally, the only one I know that's
had anorexia is male. He was unfortunately molested as a child too.
Fortunately, he's doing very well today. Men definitely get the message that
they need to look good too, probably more younger men - I'm guessing, I don't
have much perspective from older men. Those makeover shows have men too,
getting calf implants, nose jobs, face lifts, etc ... and then there's all the
hair growth products for men. Being muscular enough ca!
uses a
lot of steroid and fake supplement use. I do see that there is more push from
society for the pursuit of beauty for women, but still, the society as a whole,
is focused on looking good, for both sexes.
As far as the general media influence goes, everyone gets that. Unfortunately,
some people get wrong messages from more personal influences in their lives and
that's where there's a problem. I've gotten the message from the world around
me that women need to look hot and be skinny and it hasn't driven me to
anorexia of any form (there's also obsessive exercise as a form of anorexia -
and that just reminded me of another MALE I knew, who ended up getting fired
because he wouldn't stop working out on his shift. He would run at least a
marathon a day and then do hours on the stairmaster while at work, to the point
where he wouldn't help customers because it would interupt his workout. He
would also stay past closing to finish the stairmaster. He looked scary thin
too.)
That's all for now,
Thanks,
Melanie (Danny's favorite sister ... ok only sister too, but whatever :-))
Victoria Li Fossum wrote:
Dear Danny's Grandpa Andrew,
Thankyou for your comments. They gave me quite some food for thought, and
it is refreshing to debate with people who are unafraid to speak their
mind.
According to my preliminary investigations on the web, Catharine Mackinnon
did NOT in fact say that "all sex is rape"--Michelle, you may dispute me
on this, but it appears that that is a quote that is wrongly attributed to
her. But let me ask you this, Danny's Grandpa Andrew--have you ever been
coerced into having sex? If not, then you may not appreciate how often
participation in sex is, in fact, coerced, even in the cases where both
parties presume that they are consenting adults. And Mackinnon, I
believe, would argue that in pornography, all participation on the part of
women is coerced, though they may be too deluded (perhaps because of a
history of sexual abuse that has warped their perceptions of sexual
relationships) to recognize this as coercion. And coercion, taken to an
extreme, becomes rape. But Mackinnon's arguments, as least the ones I am
familiar with, center around the role of women in pornography, and I do
not believe she means to label all sex in the general context as rape.
As for Michelle's suggestion that anorexia reflects, in part, a pressure
for women to take up less space in the world: this is not Michelle's
original idea but something that various psychologists have proposed as
one of many analyses for the phenomena of anorexia/bulimia. While it's
true that the ways in which women are encouraged to alter their bodies in
order to please men are varied and likely to depend on the social whims of
the age (for example, breast implants and tanning salons are also popular
among women these days, but neither actually diminishes the amount of
space the woman takes up in the world--in fact, the former would actually
increase it), the root causes of a disease like anorexia are complex and
many factors may contribute to it. For instance, one hypothesis is that
women become anorexic as a way to stave off the advancement of puberty or
womanhood (as you probably know, anorexia causes the cessation of
menstruation, as well as preventing the development of fatty tissue on the
breasts and hips and preserving an overall androgynous child-like
appearance). Another well-accepted hypothesis is that anorexia is
rooted in a desire to exert self-control; thus, you could argue, if
cultural beauty ideals were different, perhaps women would manifest this
desire for self-control in some other way than by starving themselves.
But I believe there is merit to the notion that "taking up less space"
contributes to the development of anorexia, for the following reason:
women are constant told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less than what
they are or could be, to deny themselves, not do outdo others. And the
ultimate in self-abnegation is to disappear altogether, so why shouldn't
that be yet another motivation for the development of anorexia?
Let me also throw out a word of caution here: men should realize, when
undertaking participation in a debate over issues that concern women, that
it is impossible for them to experience these issues exactly as a woman
would, and that therefore they should allow that their understanding of
these issues is likely to be incomplete. And women's understanding of
issues such as rape and anorexia is likely to be incomplete unless they
have experienced those things. And women who have experienced those
things are likely to have an understanding that is incomplete because they
cannot know how other women have experienced those things, and moreover
they may not be aware of the large psychological literature about these
phenomena that might increase their own understanding. And so on... so it
is wise to be circumspect in your criticisms unless you are certain that
your understanding surpasses everyone else's.
-Victoria
On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Andrew Reeves wrote:
> Grandson Danny knows that I am, by nature, a COLLECTOR and my latest
> hobby is to collect idiotic absurdities among the arguments and maxims
> that show up in this debate. No doubt the eternal first prize goes to
> the quote attributed to Catherine McKinnon: "ALL SEX IS RAPE" but
> Michelle Sternthal's suggestion that "the female ideal of fragile stick-
> thin bodies is yet another means of encouraging women to take up less
> space in the world" comes close.
> Right on! Supply me more! --DANNY'S GRANDPA ANDREW
>
--0-952977834-1131316310=:10266
Content-Type: text/html; charset=iso-8859-1
Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit
Ok, I have something to chime in about. I'm not following every response
either, but those that are short enough to read somewhat quickly. Like my mom,
I get uninterested when I have to read a whole book (funny, cause I've been
known to write ridiculously long emails when it's something I have a lot to say
about - so I don't blame anyone). In respone to one of Victoria's comments:
"women are constantly told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less than what
they are or could be, to deny themselves, not to outdo others."
I personally can't think of any time in my life where I've gotten that
message. I've always been encouraged to do my best at everything. If anyone
that grew up with me can think of anything that contradicts that, let me know.
If there are women that have gotten that message, I can see that it would mess
with them psychologically and could lead to a need to exert control of
something in their life and anorexia is a false feeling of control that
unfortunately gets turned to. Out of all the people that I know personally,
the only one I know that's had anorexia is male. He was unfortunately molested
as a child too. Fortunately, he's doing very well today. Men definitely get
the message that they need to look good too, probably more younger men - I'm
guessing, I don't have much perspective from older men. Those makeover shows
have men too, getting calf implants, nose jobs, face lifts, etc ... and then
there's all!
the hair
growth products for men. Being muscular enough causes a lot of steroid and
fake supplement use. I do see that there is more push from society for the
pursuit of beauty for women, but still, the society as a whole, is focused on
looking good, for both sexes.
As far as the general media influence goes, everyone gets that.
Unfortunately, some people get wrong messages from more personal influences in
their lives and that's where there's a problem. I've gotten the message from
the world around me that women need to look hot and be skinny and it hasn't
driven me to anorexia of any form (there's also obsessive exercise as a form of
anorexia - and that just reminded me of another MALE I knew, who ended up
getting fired because he wouldn't stop working out on his shift. He would run
at least a marathon a day and then do hours on the stairmaster while at work,
to the point where he wouldn't help customers because it would interupt his
workout. He would also stay past closing to finish the stairmaster. He looked
scary thin too.)
That's all for now,
Thanks,
Melanie (Danny's favorite sister ... ok only sister too, but whatever :-))
Victoria Li Fossum <vfossum Æ eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
Dear Danny's Grandpa Andrew, Thankyou for your comments. They gave me quite
some food for thought, and it is refreshing to debate with people who are
unafraid to speak their mind. According to my preliminary investigations on
the web, Catharine Mackinnon did NOT in fact say that "all sex is
rape"--Michelle, you may dispute me on this, but it appears that that is a
quote that is wrongly attributed to her. But let me ask you this, Danny's
Grandpa Andrew--have you ever been coerced into having sex? If not, then you
may not appreciate how often participation in sex is, in fact, coerced, even in
the cases where both parties presume that they are consenting adults. And
Mackinnon, I believe, would argue that in pornography, all participation on the
part of women is coerced, though they may be too deluded (perhaps because of a
history of!
sexual
abuse that has warped their perceptions of sexual relationships) to recognize
this as coercion. And coercion, taken to an extreme, becomes rape. But
Mackinnon's arguments, as least the ones I am familiar with, center around the
role of women in pornography, and I do not believe she means to label all sex
in the general context as rape. As for Michelle's suggestion that anorexia
reflects, in part, a pressure for women to take up less space in the world:
this is not Michelle's original idea but something that various psychologists
have proposed as one of many analyses for the phenomena of anorexia/bulimia.
While it's true that the ways in which women are encouraged to alter their
bodies in order to please men are varied and likely to depend on the social
whims of the age (for example, breast implants and tanning salons are also
popular among women these days, but neither actually diminishes the amount of
space the woman takes up in t!
he
world--in fact, the former would actually increase it), the root causes of a
disease like anorexia are complex and many factors may contribute to it. For
instance, one hypothesis is that women become anorexic as a way to stave off
the advancement of puberty or womanhood (as you probably know, anorexia causes
the cessation of menstruation, as well as preventing the development of fatty
tissue on the breasts and hips and preserving an overall androgynous child-like
appearance). Another well-accepted hypothesis is that anorexia is rooted in a
desire to exert self-control; thus, you could argue, if cultural beauty ideals
were different, perhaps women would manifest this desire for self-control in
some other way than by starving themselves. But I believe there is merit to
the notion that "taking up less space" contributes to the development of
anorexia, for the following reason: women are constant told, in subtle and
overt ways, to be l!
ess than
what they are or could be, to deny themselves, not do outdo others. And the
ultimate in self-abnegation is to disappear altogether, so why shouldn't that
be yet another motivation for the development of anorexia? Let me also throw
out a word of caution here: men should realize, when undertaking participation
in a debate over issues that concern women, that it is impossible for them to
experience these issues exactly as a woman would, and that therefore they
should allow that their understanding of these issues is likely to be
incomplete. And women's understanding of issues such as rape and anorexia is
likely to be incomplete unless they have experienced those things. And women
who have experienced those things are likely to have an understanding that is
incomplete because they cannot know how other women have experienced those
things, and moreover they may not be aware of the large psychological
literature about these phenomena !
that
might increase their own understanding. And so on... so it is wise to be
circumspect in your criticisms unless you are certain that your understanding
surpasses everyone else's. -Victoria On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Andrew Reeves wrote:
> Grandson Danny knows that I am, by nature, a COLLECTOR and my latest >
hobby is to collect idiotic absurdities among the arguments and maxims >
that show up in this debate. No doubt the eternal first prize goes to > the
quote attributed to Catherine McKinnon: "ALL SEX IS RAPE" but > Michelle
Sternthal's suggestion that "the female ideal of fragile stick- > thin
bodies is yet another means of encouraging women to take up less > space in
the world" comes close. > Right on! Supply me more! --DANNY'S GRANDPA ANDREW
>
--0-952977834-1131316310=:10266--
|
