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Reply-To: Daniel Reeves <dreeves &AElig gmail.com>
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References: <Pine.SOL.4.58.0501270957520.9872 &AElig mspacman.gpcc.itd.umich.edu> 	 <Pine.LNX.4.58.0501271420250.8257 &AElig boston.eecs.umich.edu> 	 <Pine.WNT.4.60.0501271437040.16232 &AElig 2004-0034> 	 <2A3F6C25-7565-11D9-BB12-000A95DA4C4C &AElig umich.edu>
Date: Sat, 5 Feb 2005 00:00:36 -0500
To: improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu
Cc: Jeanette Mumford <jmumford &AElig umich.edu>
From: Daniel Reeves <dreeves &AElig gmail.com>
Subject: Re: Did Summers improve the world?
Status: RO

> I think that in general the climate today has become too PC

I'll come down on the not PC enough side.  For every example you can
cite of irrational oversensitivity I'll cite 2 of unconscious bias,
prejudice, or intolerance.
So I'm opposed to the anti-PC backlash (being the "godless unpatriotic
pierced-nose Volvo-driving France-loving left-wing communist
latte-sucking tofu-chomping holistic-wacko neurotic vegan weenie
pervert" that I am.)

> But the day when that person can't
> stand up and disagree with the current PC norms for fear of losing
> their jobs and credibility will be a sad day for humanity.

I do agree here; open-mindedness and tolerance are key.  But in hopes
of starting a grammar war (because how delightful would that be?), I
think you meant "that person can't stand up .. for fear of losing
their job [singular]".

Danny

ps, these gmail ads are interesting.  one is something about gender
equality and one is about a home kit to choose your baby's gender. 
that's a really clever scam.  they could offer a 199% of your money
back guarantee and still profit.

> On Jan 27, 2005, at 3:21 PM, Karen Conneely wrote:
> 
> > A question I'd like to put out to the whole group is this: do you
> > think Lawrence Summers' comments last week, true or not, did more good
> > or harm? I can see arguments for both of these, I don't think it's a
> > clear-cut issue.
> >
> > How it might do good:  He's getting other researchers to look at this
> > issue again, maybe in ways that could help people.  The debate has
> > made me wish I were still an economist so I could go figure out a cool
> > hypothesis and some cool data to test it with.
> >
> > How it might do harm:  Scientists have a lot of sway.  If parents,
> > teachers, and students take what he said as fact, it might contribute
> > to female students being discouraged from entering mathematical
> > fields.  I know I was discouraged in this way by certain teachers, and
> > I'd hate to see Summers' well-intentioned words feed that sort of
> > thing.
> >
> >> On Thu, 27 Jan 2005, Daniel Reeves wrote:
> >> After reading a collection of articles about this (http://aldaily.com
> >> and
> >> grep for Summers) I ended up right where I started:  having no real
> >> opinion on whether or not Summers is a slimeball.
> >>
> >> I like this Borowitz report though :) <reprinted at bottom of email>
> >
> > I don't think he's a slimeball, at least not on purpose.  I think it
> > was reasonable of him to ask the question of whether the preponderance
> > of male scientists was due to innate differences.  Debating that stuff
> > is how we figure it out, or how we figure out ways to figure it out.
> > I do think it was probably bumbling and irresponsible of him to ask it
> > the way he did, though.  As scientists, we need to make it crystal
> > clear when we are stating proven facts vs. personal opinions, and here
> > I think he failed. He was speaking as the president of Harvard and as
> > a renowned economist, and he stated what was essentially a conjecture
> > and cited two studies that supposedly backed it up.  Upon further
> > investigation, these studies really didn't say what he was
> > interpreting them to say, and the authors even came forward to point
> > this out.
> >
> > There are many studies that show that men and women think differently
> > and use their brains differently.  I don't think anyone debates that.
> > However, this is not the same as saying that men are naturally better
> > at X and women are naturally better at Y.   We haven't gotten close to
> > settling this issue yet, but I suspect that a statement like that
> > would be a vast oversimplification of the complex differences between
> > the sexes.  And even if we could say this, we don't have enough
> > evidence to decide how much of these differences are innate vs.
> > socialized.  I also wonder if this is one of those situations where
> > the within-group variation is greater than between-group variation.
> >
> > I think more research to address the differences would be useful.  Not
> > so we can make statements like the above, but so we can understand how
> > our minds work and how to teach people according to their strengths.
> > As someone (I think Annie) pointed out, it might be useful to separate
> > people into classes not by gender but by learning style - ie visual
> > vs. auditory, etc.  I would think more brain imaging studies would be
> > useful to see which parts of the brain are active while men and women
> > perform various tasks, and if there is a consistent pattern.  Studies
> > of the influence of hormones on early brain development would have to
> > be key, since this would get at the innateness vs. socialization
> > question. And we could easily look at studies of the overall trend of
> > women in the sciences.  If the percentage of scientists that are women
> > continues to increase without appearing to converge, this could
> > indicate that society is in a transition phase that isn't done yet;
> > perhaps eventually the ratio will be closer to 1:1.  Do people have
> > other ideas of interesting studies that could be done?  Or maybe know
> > of studies like this that have already been done?
> >
> > Karen
> >
> >>
> >> --- \/   FROM Karen Conneely AT 05.01.27 10:00 (Today)   \/ ---
> >>
> >>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
> >>> Date: Thu, 27 Jan 2005 02:10:23 -0500
> >>> From: Borowitzreport.com <andy &AElig borowitzreport.com>
> >>> To: conneely &AElig umich.edu
> >>> Subject: harvard president shocker
> >>>
> >>> January 26, 2005
> >>> HARVARD TO OFFER MAJOR IN HOME EC
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> Move Seen as Olive Branch to Women
> >>>
> >>> In an effort to "level the academic playing field," Harvard
> >>> University
> >>> President Lawrence Summers announced today that the university would
> >>> introduce a home economics major designed specifically for its female
> >>> students.
> >>>
> >>> "Starting in the fall, Harvard will offer home economics for women
> >>> who
> >>> find economics too tricky," said Mr. Summers, who called the move
> >>> "long
> >>> overdue."
> >>>
> >>> Mr. Summers said that the new courses would help women at Harvard
> >>> improve their grade point averages, adding, "When it comes to getting
> >>> busy in the kitchen, women are second to none."
> >>>
> >>> The home ec major, which will consist of courses in cooking, sewing
> >>> and
> >>> what Summers called "the allied domestic arts and sciences," is
> >>> considered a major departure for the curriculum of the storied
> >>> academic
> >>> institution.
> >>>
> >>> Coming in the wake of Mr. Summers' recent controversial remarks about
> >>> purported intellectual differences between the sexes, the Harvard
> >>> president's decision to introduce a home economics major for women
> >>> was
> >>> widely seen as an olive branch of sorts.
> >>>
> >>> But the move may have backfired, as an angry mob of female faculty
> >>> members protested outside his office today, demanding his immediate
> >>> ouster and burning Mr. Summers in effigy.
> >>>
> >>> In a meeting with the protesters, Mr. Summers promised that he would
> >>> recruit additional women to the Harvard faculty but refused to tell
> >>> the
> >>> protesters how many: "I don't want to fill your heads with a lot of
> >>> big
> >>> numbers you won't understand."
> >>>
> >>> Elsewhere, Attorney General nominee Alberto Gonzales continued to
> >>> disavow torture today, but told reporters, "This is harder than
> >>> quitting
> >>> smoking."
> >>>
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> >>> ***
> >>> BOROWITZ AT THE HBO COMEDY FESTIVAL IN ASPEN***
> >>>
> >>> See Andy at this year's HBO Comedy Festival in Aspen. Scheduled so
> >>> far:
> >>> Thursday, February 10: 9:00 PM, The Tent
> >>> Saturday, February 12: 1:00 PM, Wheeler Opera House
> >>> For more details, go to www.hbocomedyfestival.com
> >>>
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> >>
> >> --
> >> http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves  - -  google://"Daniel Reeves"
> >>
> >> "Instead of studying for finals, what about just going to the
> >> Bahamas and catching some rays? Maybe you'll flunk, but you might
> >> have flunked anyway; that's my point." -- Jack Handey
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> Dave Morris
> University of Michigan EM PhD candidate, aka thecat &AElig umich.edu, aka
> KB8PWY
> home: 734-995-5525  office (2104 SPRL): 734-763-5357  fax: 734-763-5567
> ElectroDynamic Applications Inc.
> phone: (734) 786-1434 fax: (734) 786-3235
> morris &AElig edapplications.com
> 
> 


-- 
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves  - -  google://"Daniel Reeves"