X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00 autolearn=unavailable version=3.2.2 Sender: -2.6 (spamval) -- NONE Return-Path: Received: from newman.eecs.umich.edu (newman.eecs.umich.edu [141.213.4.11]) by boston.eecs.umich.edu (8.12.10/8.13.0) with ESMTP id l8B5CHux004770 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:12:18 -0400 Received: from icestorm.mr.itd.umich.edu (mx.umich.edu [141.211.176.135]) by newman.eecs.umich.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8B5Blm4016516; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:11:47 -0400 Received: FROM newman.eecs.umich.edu (newman.eecs.umich.edu [141.213.4.11]) BY icestorm.mr.itd.umich.edu ID 46E6239E.C722B.19129 ; 11 Sep 2007 01:11:58 -0400 Received: from boston.eecs.umich.edu (boston.eecs.umich.edu [141.213.4.61]) by newman.eecs.umich.edu (8.14.1/8.14.1) with ESMTP id l8B5BS6h016451 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=FAIL) for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:11:29 -0400 Received: from boston.eecs.umich.edu (localhost.eecs.umich.edu [127.0.0.1]) by boston.eecs.umich.edu (8.12.10/8.13.0) with ESMTP id l8B5Bpux004754 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=DHE-RSA-AES256-SHA bits=256 verify=NO) for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:11:51 -0400 Received: from localhost (dreeves Æ localhost) by boston.eecs.umich.edu (8.12.10/8.12.9/Submit) with ESMTP id l8B5Bp1Y004751 for ; Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:11:51 -0400 X-Authentication-Warning: boston.eecs.umich.edu: dreeves owned process doing -bs X-X-Sender: dreeves Æ boston.eecs.umich.edu Message-ID: MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.2.2 (2007-07-23) on newman.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on newman.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Scanned: ClamAV version 0.91.2, clamav-milter version 0.91.2 on newman.eecs.umich.edu X-Virus-Status: Clean Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 01:11:51 -0400 (EDT) To: improvetheworld Æ umich.edu From: Andrew Reeves Subject: Re: mind the gap Danny, and everybody else in this dinosaurian debate (please forward as appropriate, as I am not sure how to do that): You are goading me to enter the fray, but I am still resisting. One of the great luxuries I am enjoying as an American is that I do not HAVE to get involved in debates of this sort, in glaring contrast to early-Communist Hungary in the late 1940's when "Dialectic Materialism: the Overthrow of Exploitation in a New and Just Society" became a required subject in the CHEMISTRY (as well as any other) curriculum at the University while the classes on "Resonance Theory of Chemical Bonding", along with all biology classes based on the gene theory of heredity, were dropped. This was by no means an isolated phenomenon: ideologic purity was valued higher than technical expertise in all Communist societies whose first priority was, naturally, self-preservation. It was this mentality, eventually overriding all other considerations, that was the decisive kick in my ass to assume all the dangers and difficulties of escape and starting a new life from scratch in the West. You guys seem to have been asleep (or perhaps not born yet) during most of the twentieth century. As far as I am concerned, the mention of dinosaurs in the salutation was not only a reference to their size, but also to their obsoleteness. Today, after the conclusion of this most turbulent century in human history, it is no longer necessary to compare societal systems on their THEORETICAL beauties. We now have historic experience. The "Daddy" model, the "Coconut" model, and all others, including the "value surplus" model of Marx, are of course ludicrous oversimplifications.You can debate those models until you are blue in the face. Why not just look at the HISTORIC RECORD, and realize that Socialism, for all its good intentions, DOES NOT WORK and must be eventually propped up by police support that in the Stalinist/Maoist extreme became a veritable nightmare. Capitalism, for all its basic selfishness, WORKS and does not need internal reinforcement. That does not mean that it is perfect, and the Capitalist system is indeed constantly subject to vigorous debate and changes here-and-there. Try to just suggest this in a Socialist/ Communist society and you know where you will end up. And if you say it is unfair to compare the American model to say Russia which was subject to absolutism even under the Czars, I have the perfect controlled experiment for you: Just compare East and West Germany 1949-1989. One people, one tradition, comparable industrial/agricultural base; only the occupying power and the governments they imposed was different. Then compare their standard of living, personal freedoms, even the bare looks of towns and villages. QED, and you guys can go on beating your dead horse. --Danny's Grandpa (now also Great-Grandpa) Andrew.