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Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:18:19 -0400 (EDT)
To: Yevgeniy Vorobeychik <yvorobey &AElig umich.edu>
cc: improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu
From: Kevin Lochner <klochner &AElig eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Those Using Babies as Sheilds (fwd)
Status: O

i love the website name "honestreporting.com", i may start one called 
"trustme.com".

http://www.prwatch.org/node/396


On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Yevgeniy Vorobeychik wrote:

> Here's another important link. If you are truly interested in objectivity, 
> you should look at this link *in addition* to your other sources of 
> information:
>
> http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Qana_In_Context.asp
>
> It also has links to information on the Gaza Beach incident and the "Jenin 
> massacre".
>
> Eugene
>
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Yevgeniy Vorobeychik wrote:
>
>> Here are a couple of links that provide some useful information:
>> 
>> http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD122106
>> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html
>> 
>> The former is Syrian government media response to the crisis; the latter is 
>> a general myths and facts guide to the arab-israeli conflict. I am 
>> including these for both the historical as well as current perspective.
>> 
>> Here's an excellent editorial in Washington Post:
>> 
>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701725.html
>> 
>> That's a must read.
>> 
>> I don't want to write elaborate essays defending Israel. Not yet, anyway. I 
>> (and every Israeli) agree that the death of innocent Lebanese civilians is 
>> a tragedy and it breaks my heart to hear about it. It also aggravates me a 
>> great deal when people put all the blame for these deaths squarely on 
>> Israel's shoulders.  A point that has been raised a number of times, but 
>> seems somehow not to catch is that Hezbollah hides its military arsenal in 
>> the civilian centers.  This is a brilliant strategy, as it essentially 
>> ensures that any attempt by Israel (or anyone else, for that matter) to 
>> diminish its military capabilities will inevitably result in civilian 
>> deaths. So, when Hezbollah intentionally puts its civilians in harm's way, 
>> no one flinches. When Israel tries to defend itself, there is an outcry of 
>> war crimes.
>> 
>> Regarding the question of Israel using areal attacks vs. ground troops, it 
>> may be that Anthony is right. But that is unclear to me.  Recall that a 
>> year or two ago Israel attempted to root out terrorists in Jenin (in the 
>> operation that became known as the "massacre of Jenin").  It turned out 
>> that Israel chose in this case to fight house-to-house rather than use any 
>> air support at all, losing I think 15 of its soldiers in the process. About 
>> 50 Palestinians were also killed, almost all militants. The few civilians 
>> that were killed were used by the militants as human shields (seems to be a 
>> popular tactic for the terrorists) and were killed accidentally.  (I 
>> actually heard stories of Israeli soldiers being extremely disturbed by 
>> this phenomenon, as it presents a daunting moral dilemma).  So clearly 
>> Israel has in the past put much value on lives of civilians at great risk 
>> to its soldiers. I suspect that an important factor in limiting the ground 
>> troops in Lebanon is the one that Anthony also mentioned: Israel is trying 
>> to avoid at all costs having this war look like another occupation of 
>> Lebanon.  I suspect also that it is a part of Hezbollah's political 
>> strategy to force Israel to do just that: reoccupy Lebanon.  It has been 
>> losing popularity and political power since Lebanon had become democratic. 
>> There has been tremendous pressure for it to disarm.  It needs to convince 
>> people that it is still a legitimate resistance movement, which has been 
>> more difficult to do since Israel had withdrawn from Lebanon.
>> 
>> Eugene
>> 
>> On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, Anthony Nicholson wrote:
>> 
>>> I hope we can just all agree that the IDF is obviously not targeting 
>>> civilian Lebanese on purpose... but I think the situation in southern 
>>> Lebanon is not as clear-cut as saying that they were warned to leave and 
>>> they didn't, so Israel is not responsible if civilians are caught in the 
>>> cross-fire from this point on. A lot of people probably stayed put because 
>>> of the unsafe road conditions, both due to destruction by bombing and 
>>> because of Israelis mistaking civilian cars for Hezbollah members (which 
>>> regrettably has happened).
>>> 
>>> Also, it seems the reason these sorts of mistakes like Kfar Cana are 
>>> happening is because the IDF wants to do most of the dirty work from the 
>>> air, rather than on the ground. I obviously understand their reluctance to 
>>> launch a large ground invasion, because of the past history and because of 
>>> the increased number of Israeli casualties that would result. But at what 
>>> point are they just trading Israeli army members' lives for those of 
>>> Lebanese civilians?
>>> 
>>> In my opinion, it is just as bad as what we have done in Iraq. It seems we 
>>> value American lives more than those of Iraqis, because we often prefer to 
>>> just bomb targets from the air--often causing "collateral damage" next 
>>> door--rather than go house to house. Even the smartest smart bomb is going 
>>> to have unintended consequences when dropped in the middle of dense areas.
>>> 
>>> -anthony
>>> 
>>> Daniel Reeves wrote:
>>>> Thanks Eugene.  This topic in general is certainly worth a thread and if 
>>>> this is a controversial way to start one, all the better.
>>>> 
>>>> Yes, the perspective below is biased but I believe it's true that the 
>>>> Israeli army is not actively targeting civilians.  If you have a 
>>>> different opinion, speak up.
>>>> 
>>>> Here's some perspective from the other side, contributed by Uluc:
>>>> http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921
>>>> 
>>>> I haven't vetted any of this very carefully -- just hoping to get the 
>>>> discussion started.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>>> From: Yevgeniy Vorobeychik <yvorobey &AElig umich.edu>
>>>> Subject: Those Using Babies as Sheilds (fwd)
>>>> 
>>>> Hey, guys. I am generally averse to spamming people with propaganda. 
>>>> However, I feel it my moral responsibility to disseminate this human 
>>>> story to contrast it with the increasing sense that Israeli army has no 
>>>> compunctions about civilian casualties you may be getting from the media 
>>>> coverage.  Do you think this topic in general is worth an improvetheworld 
>>>> thread?
>>>> 
>>>> Eugene
>>>> 
>>>> _________
>>>> 
>>>> Cry to those Using Babies as Sheilds
>>>> By
>>>> 
>>>> Naomi Ragen
>>>> 
>>>> My son is in the army. He is not the type at all, believe
>>>> me. Quiet, studious, a writer, a lover of Jewish history,
>>>> Talmud, ethics. He spent two years in a pre-army program in
>>>> the Galilee called Karmei Chayil. He made many good friends
>>>> there from all over the country, and now he and all his
>>>> friends are in the army. One of them I know well. A bit
>>>> chubby, with payot, and a great laugh. He and my son have
>>>> become like brothers. While both of them tried out for the
>>>> elite paratroopers unit, only he made it in. He and his
>>>> unit are the ones in Lebanon. They were there over a week,
>>>> fighting under horrific conditions, running out of food and
>>>> water. Even though the Israeli airforce dropped tons of
>>>> leaflets warning civilians to flee because they were in
>>>> terrorist territory and likely to be injured, they still
>>>> encountered civilians. My son spoke to his friend
>>>> yesterday,and this is how he described it:
>>>> "The village looked empty, and then we heard noises coming
>>>> from one of the houses, so we opened fire. But when we
>>>> went inside, we found two women and a child huddled in the
>>>> corner of the room. We were so relieved we hadn't hurt
>>>> them. We took up base in one of the empty houses. And then
>>>> all of a sudden, we came under intense fire. Three rockets
>>>> were fired at the house we were in. Only one managed to
>>>> destroy a wall, which fell on one of us, covering him in
>>>> white dust, but otherwise not hurting him. I spent the
>>>> whole time feeding bullets to my friend who was shooting
>>>> non-stop. We managed to killed 26 terrorists. Not one of
>>>> us was hurt. Our commanding officer kept walking around,
>>>> touching everybody on the shoulder, smiling and encouraging
>>>> us: "We're are better than they are. Don't worry." It
>>>> calmed us all down. And really, we were much better then
>>>> them. They are a lousy army. They only win when they hide
>>>> behind baby carriages."
>>>> 
>>>> Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of
>>>> the Israeli bomb dropped on Kfar Cana, killing many
>>>> civilians, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds
>>>> of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr.
>>>> Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to
>>>> leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing
>>>> rockets amidst civilians."
>>>> 
>>>> Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to
>>>> complain about civilian casualties, since all they have done
>>>> this entire war is target civilians. Every single one of the
>>>> more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched
>>>> into populated towns filled with women and children. Just
>>>> today, another suicide belt meant to kill civilians in
>>>> Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus. So
>>>> don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those
>>>> using your babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who
>>>> store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and private
>>>> homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the
>>>> backyards of your kindergartens and schools. Cry to the
>>>> heartless men who love death, and however many of their
>>>> troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as
>>>> long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and
>>>> children.
>>>> 
>>>> Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and
>>>> girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be
>>>> sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice
>>>> but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and
>>>> endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells
>>>> that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your
>>>> choice, and save your tears.
>>>> 
>>>> That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of
>>>> our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers,
>>>> not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part.
>>>> If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are
>>>> responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>> 
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>> 
>>>> For more articles,please visit my Web page at: http://www.NaomiRagen.com
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>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
>