Sender: -4.4 (spamval) -- NONE
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608011059300.16240 &AElig rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608011203280.20494 &AElig rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
References: <Pine.LNX.4.64.0607311440460.30087 &AElig boston.eecs.umich.edu>  <44CE899B.2090608 &AElig umich.edu> <Pine.LNX.4.64.0608011059300.16240 &AElig rygar.gpcc.itd.umich.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
Date: Tue, 1 Aug 2006 12:09:41 -0400 (EDT)
To: improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu
From: Yevgeniy Vorobeychik <yvorobey &AElig umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Those Using Babies as Sheilds (fwd)
Status: RO

Here's another important link. If you are truly interested in objectivity, 
you should look at this link *in addition* to your other sources of 
information:

http://www.honestreporting.com/articles/45884734/critiques/Qana_In_Context.asp

It also has links to information on the Gaza Beach incident and the "Jenin 
massacre".

Eugene

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006, Yevgeniy Vorobeychik wrote:

> Here are a couple of links that provide some useful information:
>
> http://memri.org/bin/latestnews.cgi?ID=SD122106
> http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mftoc.html
>
> The former is Syrian government media response to the crisis; the latter is a 
> general myths and facts guide to the arab-israeli conflict. I am including 
> these for both the historical as well as current perspective.
>
> Here's an excellent editorial in Washington Post:
>
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/27/AR2006072701725.html
>
> That's a must read.
>
> I don't want to write elaborate essays defending Israel. Not yet, anyway. I 
> (and every Israeli) agree that the death of innocent Lebanese civilians is a 
> tragedy and it breaks my heart to hear about it. It also aggravates me a 
> great deal when people put all the blame for these deaths squarely on 
> Israel's shoulders.  A point that has been raised a number of times, but 
> seems somehow not to catch is that Hezbollah hides its military arsenal in 
> the civilian centers.  This is a brilliant strategy, as it essentially 
> ensures that any attempt by Israel (or anyone else, for that matter) to 
> diminish its military capabilities will inevitably result in civilian deaths. 
> So, when Hezbollah intentionally puts its civilians in harm's way, no one 
> flinches. When Israel tries to defend itself, there is an outcry of war 
> crimes.
>
> Regarding the question of Israel using areal attacks vs. ground troops, it 
> may be that Anthony is right. But that is unclear to me.  Recall that a year 
> or two ago Israel attempted to root out terrorists in Jenin (in the operation 
> that became known as the "massacre of Jenin").  It turned out that Israel 
> chose in this case to fight house-to-house rather than use any air support at 
> all, losing I think 15 of its soldiers in the process. About 50 Palestinians 
> were also killed, almost all militants. The few civilians that were killed 
> were used by the militants as human shields (seems to be a popular tactic for 
> the terrorists) and were killed accidentally.  (I actually heard stories of 
> Israeli soldiers being extremely disturbed by this phenomenon, as it presents 
> a daunting moral dilemma).  So clearly Israel has in the past put much value 
> on lives of civilians at great risk to its soldiers. I suspect that an 
> important factor in limiting the ground troops in Lebanon is the one that 
> Anthony also mentioned: Israel is trying to avoid at all costs having this 
> war look like another occupation of Lebanon.  I suspect also that it is a 
> part of Hezbollah's political strategy to force Israel to do just that: 
> reoccupy Lebanon.  It has been losing popularity and political power since 
> Lebanon had become democratic.  There has been tremendous pressure for it to 
> disarm.  It needs to convince people that it is still a legitimate resistance 
> movement, which has been more difficult to do since Israel had withdrawn from 
> Lebanon.
>
> Eugene
>
> On Mon, 31 Jul 2006, Anthony Nicholson wrote:
>
>> I hope we can just all agree that the IDF is obviously not targeting 
>> civilian Lebanese on purpose... but I think the situation in southern 
>> Lebanon is not as clear-cut as saying that they were warned to leave and 
>> they didn't, so Israel is not responsible if civilians are caught in the 
>> cross-fire from this point on. A lot of people probably stayed put because 
>> of the unsafe road conditions, both due to destruction by bombing and 
>> because of Israelis mistaking civilian cars for Hezbollah members (which 
>> regrettably has happened).
>> 
>> Also, it seems the reason these sorts of mistakes like Kfar Cana are 
>> happening is because the IDF wants to do most of the dirty work from the 
>> air, rather than on the ground. I obviously understand their reluctance to 
>> launch a large ground invasion, because of the past history and because of 
>> the increased number of Israeli casualties that would result. But at what 
>> point are they just trading Israeli army members' lives for those of 
>> Lebanese civilians?
>> 
>> In my opinion, it is just as bad as what we have done in Iraq. It seems we 
>> value American lives more than those of Iraqis, because we often prefer to 
>> just bomb targets from the air--often causing "collateral damage" next 
>> door--rather than go house to house. Even the smartest smart bomb is going 
>> to have unintended consequences when dropped in the middle of dense areas.
>> 
>> -anthony
>> 
>> Daniel Reeves wrote:
>>> Thanks Eugene.  This topic in general is certainly worth a thread and if 
>>> this is a controversial way to start one, all the better.
>>> 
>>> Yes, the perspective below is biased but I believe it's true that the 
>>> Israeli army is not actively targeting civilians.  If you have a different 
>>> opinion, speak up.
>>> 
>>> Here's some perspective from the other side, contributed by Uluc:
>>> http://www.fair.org/index.php?page=2921
>>> 
>>> I haven't vetted any of this very carefully -- just hoping to get the 
>>> discussion started.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> ---------- Forwarded message ----------
>>> From: Yevgeniy Vorobeychik <yvorobey &AElig umich.edu>
>>> Subject: Those Using Babies as Sheilds (fwd)
>>> 
>>> Hey, guys. I am generally averse to spamming people with propaganda. 
>>> However, I feel it my moral responsibility to disseminate this human story 
>>> to contrast it with the increasing sense that Israeli army has no 
>>> compunctions about civilian casualties you may be getting from the media 
>>> coverage.  Do you think this topic in general is worth an improvetheworld 
>>> thread?
>>> 
>>> Eugene
>>> 
>>> _________
>>> 
>>> Cry to those Using Babies as Sheilds
>>> By
>>> 
>>> Naomi Ragen
>>> 
>>> My son is in the army. He is not the type at all, believe
>>> me. Quiet, studious, a writer, a lover of Jewish history,
>>> Talmud, ethics. He spent two years in a pre-army program in
>>> the Galilee called Karmei Chayil. He made many good friends
>>> there from all over the country, and now he and all his
>>> friends are in the army. One of them I know well. A bit
>>> chubby, with payot, and a great laugh. He and my son have
>>> become like brothers. While both of them tried out for the
>>> elite paratroopers unit, only he made it in. He and his
>>> unit are the ones in Lebanon. They were there over a week,
>>> fighting under horrific conditions, running out of food and
>>> water. Even though the Israeli airforce dropped tons of
>>> leaflets warning civilians to flee because they were in
>>> terrorist territory and likely to be injured, they still
>>> encountered civilians. My son spoke to his friend
>>> yesterday,and this is how he described it:
>>> "The village looked empty, and then we heard noises coming
>>> from one of the houses, so we opened fire. But when we
>>> went inside, we found two women and a child huddled in the
>>> corner of the room. We were so relieved we hadn't hurt
>>> them. We took up base in one of the empty houses. And then
>>> all of a sudden, we came under intense fire. Three rockets
>>> were fired at the house we were in. Only one managed to
>>> destroy a wall, which fell on one of us, covering him in
>>> white dust, but otherwise not hurting him. I spent the
>>> whole time feeding bullets to my friend who was shooting
>>> non-stop. We managed to killed 26 terrorists. Not one of
>>> us was hurt. Our commanding officer kept walking around,
>>> touching everybody on the shoulder, smiling and encouraging
>>> us: "We're are better than they are. Don't worry." It
>>> calmed us all down. And really, we were much better then
>>> them. They are a lousy army. They only win when they hide
>>> behind baby carriages."
>>> 
>>> Please remember this when you hear about the "atrocity" of
>>> the Israeli bomb dropped on Kfar Cana, killing many
>>> civilians, a place from which Hezbollah has fired hundreds
>>> of rockets at Israel. Unlike previous administrations, Mr.
>>> Olmert has my respect when he says: "They were warned to
>>> leave. It is the responsibility of Hezbollah for firing
>>> rockets amidst civilians."
>>> 
>>> Terrorists and their supporters have lost the right to
>>> complain about civilian casualties, since all they have done
>>> this entire war is target civilians. Every single one of the
>>> more than 2,500 rockets launched into Israel, is launched
>>> into populated towns filled with women and children. Just
>>> today, another suicide belt meant to kill civilians in
>>> Israel was detonated harmlessly by our forces in Nablus. So
>>> don't cry to me about civilian casualties. Cry to those
>>> using your babies and wives and mothers; cry to those who
>>> store weapons in mosques, ambulances, hospitals, and private
>>> homes. Cry to those launching deadly rockets from the
>>> backyards of your kindergartens and schools. Cry to the
>>> heartless men who love death, and however many of their
>>> troops or civilians die, consider themselves victorious as
>>> long as they can keep on firing rockets at our women and
>>> children.
>>> 
>>> Save your sympathy for the mothers and sisters and
>>> girlfriends of our young soldiers who would rather be
>>> sitting in study halls learning Torah, but have no choice
>>> but to risk their precious lives full of hope, goodness and
>>> endless potential, to wipe out the cancerous terrorist cells
>>> that threaten their people and all mankind. Make your
>>> choice, and save your tears.
>>> 
>>> That terrorists have been unsuccessful in killing more of
>>> our women and children is due to our army, God and prayers,
>>> not to any lack of motivation or intention on their part.
>>> If you hide behind your baby to shoot at my baby, you are
>>> responsible for getting children killed. You and you alone.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>
>>> 
>>> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>> 
>>> For more articles,please visit my Web page at: http://www.NaomiRagen.com
>>> To subscribe, send a blank message to NaomiRagen-on &AElig mail-list.com
>>> To unsubscribe, send a blank message to NaomiRagen-off &AElig mail-list.com
>>> To change your email address, send a message to 
>>> NaomiRagen-change &AElig mail-list.com
>>> with your old address in the Subject: line
>>> To contact the list owner, send your message to
>>> NaomiRagen-list-owner &AElig mail-list.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> To unsubscribe, click on the following web page.
>>> http://cgi.mail-list.com/u?ln=naomiragen&nm=mbpevzner &AElig yahoo.com
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This message was launched into cyberspace to mbpevzner &AElig yahoo.com
>>> ________________________________________________________________________
>>> Check out AOL.com today. Breaking news, video search, pictures, email and 
>>> IM. All on demand. Always Free.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>
>
>