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Date: Fri, 30 Jun 2006 09:59:55 -0400 (EDT)
To: Monica Stephens <mstephens &AElig gmail.com>
Cc: Lisa Hsu <hsul &AElig eecs.umich.edu>, Daniel Reeves <dreeves &AElig umich.edu>,         improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu, Michael Schwarz <schwarz.m &AElig gmail.com>,         David Pennock <pennockd &AElig yahoo-inc.com>,         Yiling Chen <cheny &AElig yahoo-inc.com>,         Daniel Reeves <dreeves &AElig yahoo-inc.com>, yootopia-discuss &AElig yahoo-inc.com
From: Bethany Soule <bethany &AElig pirateship.org>
Subject: Re: Fairer Favors
Status: RO
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You can have a targeted auction. Every auction doesn't have to have the
same audience. -- Right now the Yootles interface for this is pretty
rudimentary -- you invite people to an auction by emailing them; so only
email the people you want to participate. If we ever get a more
sophisticated and user-friendly Yootles.com it could have some niftier
mechanism for doing this. Like a list of people within your circle that
you can select to be invited/join a particular auction, or the option to
open it to people who aren't in your circle.

And Melanie is right, a lot of the yootles applications we've seen or
talked about so far are for decisions or exchanges among family and
friends. But I don't think that means there aren't applications
outside those circles.

As for the idea that you'd value a ride from your partner above any other
ride, you would just need a more sophisticated auction mechanism that can
represent those preferences. A VCG auction would do the trick. And here's
the part where yootles.com ought to really shine (someday) -- I have a
dream that someday you, the user, wouldn't have to ever hear the phrase
VCG, but could simply go your auction page and click on "start a new
auction" answer a few simple questions and la! --auction page
generated, --invitees notified, --bid away!



On Fri, 30 Jun 2006, Monica Stephens wrote:

> I only felt comfortable bidding on bethany's airport trip after I e-mailed
her first.  I didn't want to force her (through underbidding everybody
else) to make an economic decision she was not socially comfortable with,
and I think that's my largest qualm with using this system.

I don't see the value of all airport rides as the same.  If I were looking
for a ride to the airport, and my partner bid an exorbitant amount of
yootles (i.e. Danny's Y$2000) to fly here and drive me to the airport, I
would want to discourage others from underbidding him in the auction.  There
is a value added from spending the 30 min. drive time with him.  After all,
if I then owed Y$2000, and he had a 2000 yootle surplus, it would be in my
best interest to immediately start charging yootles for things I usually do
(cooking, cleaning, dishes, backrubs, etc…).  I would probably make up the
difference in less than 30 days, but I'd certainly piss him off in the
process.  Not only would he have to fly to Michigan for 30 minutes of my
time, but he'd then have to deal with price gouging for a back rub at 1:30
am.


So, back to Bethany's trip to the airport.  What if a rapist bid 1 yootle to
drive her to the airport?  It would be like the walmartization of the yootle
system--one could undercut everybody else, economically force her to buy
their service, then provide a crappy service that hurts everybody in the
long-run.

-Monica



On 6/29/06, Lisa Hsu <hsul &AElig eecs.umich.edu> wrote:
>
> the thing that really sold me on the yootles idea is the anecdote danny
> had in his faq from dave...that sometimes he and exes have been at odds over
> something, and he "won" the argument when it really mattered much less to
> him than her, whatever it was.  i think there is always room for
> spontaneity/generousity, but there are times where one of us wants something
> (pizza) and another wants something else (thai food) and we need some medium
> of arbitration...so i think it would be cool for my fiance and i to try
> yootles.
>
> a concern though, that i didn't think of until i saw melanie's email and
> danny's email, is that then you might feel you get "owed" yootles for being
> generous.  like, if one day i just felt like making him his favorite food,
> and he didn't act sufficiently grateful ;), then i'd feel like he should
> have given me a bunch of yootles...hmmm...and eventually i might stop
> offering spontaneous gestures...??
>
> i'm just thinking out loud here.
>
> i used to be concise and eloquent, before i became a full time engineer in
> college.  somehow, james has managed to keep his linguistic gifts, lucky him
> :).
>
>
> lisa
>
>
> On 6/29/06, Daniel Reeves <dreeves &AElig umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I'm getting responses offline indicating mass misunderstanding of
> > Bethany's yootles mechanism.  I encourage you all to spam the group
> > (reply-all) since it's really no problem for people to just
> > ignore/delete
> > the whole thread (as long as you don't change the subject line).
> >
> > The main question is "what good is a yootle?"  The answer is, as
> > established by precedent, about a fiftieth of a ride to the airport.
> > Yootles are not meant to be exchanged for money.  Nonetheless, if you
> > acquire yootles you will, in a real sense, get positive utility out of
> > them.  In fact, I personally guarantee it.  If you can't find anything
> > else to do with them I will give you cash for them.  Seriously, they're
> > very useful to me for things like influencing family decisions or
> > getting
> > out of doing the dishes.  Or getting out of tasks my boss assigns (I kid
> > you not -- ask him; he's cc'd).  Which perhaps means I shouldn't be
> > allowed to buy yootles -- that question is still under debate.  The
> > whole
> > yootles thing is still brand new.  It would be great to get input from
> > you
> > all.
> >
> > The other question about Bethany's airport auction people are asking is,
> >
> > why are people who aren't even in Michigan bidding thousands of yootles?
> > Yes, it would be very dumb for me to fly to Detroit to take Bethany to
> > the
> > airport to fly to New York to visit me.  But my bid just reflects that
> > if
> > for some crazy hypothetical reason she needed one of us to drive her at
> > any cost, that's roughly what the cost to me would be.  The auction
> > mechanism now uses that information to decide that, yes, it would be
> > dumb
> > for Danny to do it!  And, as you can see, I'm fortunately losing the
> > auction.
> >
> > One anonymous person (ok, fine, my grandfather) has opined that this is
> > an
> > awful idea and that people should arrange exchanges of favors with no
> > explicit tracking system.  The yootles system, he says, undermines the
> > spirit of magnanimity in favor-giving and fairness in decision-making
> > and
> > is bad for society.
> >
> > How's that for a gauntlet throwdown?  Let's hear some side-taking...
> >
> > Danny
> >
> > --- \/   FROM Daniel Reeves AT 06.06.29 12:13 (Today)   \/ ---
> >
> > > Oh, wow, airport rides are a great example.  I've more than once
> > wished I
> > > could respond along these lines:
> > >  "I could but it's at a bad time.  But I'd rather take you than leave
> > >   you high and dry.  So, um, could I just pay for your cab?"
> > > But of course that's not an option.
> > >
> > > So, yes, we're making far from socially optimal decisions about rides
> > to the
> > > airport.  Bethany's idea to auction off the favor is a really good
> > one!
> > >
> > > If you could humor us and put in a bid even if you can't realistically
> > do it,
> > > that would really help get a feel for how this system might work.
> > > Like I put in Y$2000 estimating that's how much it would cost to get a
> > last
> > > minute flight to detroit, rent a car, and drive Bethany to the
> > airport.
> > >
> > > Ooh, and let me sweeten the deal:  if you take Bethany to the airport
> > you can
> > > use her car while she's gone.  It's technically still my car, so I can
> > say
> > > that. :)
> > >
> > > Danny
> > >
> > > --- \/   FROM bethany soule AT 06.06.29 08:35 (Today)   \/ ---
> > >
> > >> Inasmuch as fairer favor tracking and better group decision making
> > >> improve the world, I'd like to open this up for discussion:  Can
> > >> people make better decisions when they can explicitly compare their
> > >> utilities for the different options?
> > >>
> > >> Or, more specifically, can I identify from among my friends, who
> > would
> > >> least mind taking me to the airport tomorrow?  Let's find out:
> > >>
> > >> http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab
> > >>   Or the view-only version since the above is browser-picky:
> > >> http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab.html
> > >>
> > >> (Getting 50 yootles should be plenty to get your own ride to the
> > >> airport from me or others later.  More at yootles.com.)
> > >>
> > >> Bethany
> > >>
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves  - -  search://"Daniel Reeves"
> >
> > "Life may have no meaning -- or even worse, it may have a meaning of
> > which I disapprove."
> >
> >
>