Good points, Monica! This is why it only mak= es sense to me for a family or a couple or a close group of friends or a gr= oup of co-workers (as long as you're sure none of them are rapists! :-)) to= use the system. Does Bethany have to go with the lowest bidder thoug= h? Can't she skip the "rapist's" offer and pay more for better servic= e just like we can choose not to shop at Walmart?

----- Original Message ----
From: Monica Stephens <mstephen= s Æ gmail.com>
To: Lisa Hsu <hsul Æ eecs.umich.edu>
Cc: Daniel R= eeves <dreeves Æ umich.edu>; improvetheworld Æ umich.edu; Michael Schwarz= <schwarz.m Æ gmail.com>; David Pennock <pennockd Æ yahoo-inc.com>;= Yiling Chen <cheny Æ yahoo-inc.com>; Daniel Reeves <dreeves Æ yahoo-i= nc.com>; yootopia-discuss Æ yahoo-inc.com
Sent: Thursday, June 29, 2006= 11:08:05 PM
Subject: Re: Fairer Favors

I only felt comfortable bidding on be= thany's airport trip after I e-mailed her first. I didn't want to for= ce her (through underbidding everybody else) to make an economic = decision she was not socially comfortable with, and I think that's my large= st qualm with using this system.

I don't see = the value of all airport rides as the same. = If I were looking for a ride to the airport, and my partner bid an exorbita= nt amount of yootles (i.e. Danny's Y$2000) to fly here and drive me to the = airport, I would want to discourage others from underbidding him in the auc= tion. There is a value added from spending the 30 min. = drive time with him. After all, if I then owed Y$2000, a= nd he had a 2000 yootle surplus, it would be in my best interest to immedia= tely start charging yootles for things I usually do (cooking, cleaning, dis= hes, backrubs, etc=E2=80=A6). I would probably make up = the difference in less than 30 days, but I'd certainly piss him off in the = process. Not only would he have to fly to Michigan for 3= 0 minutes of my time, but he'd then have to deal with price gouging for a back rub at 1:30 am.

So, back to Bethany's trip to the airport. = What if a rapist bid 1 yootle to drive her to the airport? It would b= e like the walmartization of the yootle system--one could undercut everybod= y else, economically force her to buy their service, then provide a crappy = service that hurts everybody in the long-run.

-Monica

On 6/29/06, Lisa= Hsu <hsul Æ eecs.umich.edu> wrote:=20

the thing that really sold me on the yootles idea is the anecdote dann= y had in his faq from dave...that sometimes he and exes have been at odds o= ver something, and he "won" the argument when it really mattered much less = to him than her, whatever it was. i think there is always room for sp= ontaneity/generousity, but there are times where one of us wants something = (pizza) and another wants something else (thai food) and we need some mediu= m of arbitration...so i think it would be cool for my fiance and i to try y= ootles.

a concern though, that i didn't think of until i saw melani= e's email and danny's email, is that then you might feel you get "owed" yoo= tles for being generous. like, if one day i just felt like making him= his favorite food, and he didn't act sufficiently grateful ;), then i'd fe= el like he should have given me a bunch of yootles...hmmm...and eventually = i might stop offering spontaneous gestures...??

i'm just thinking o= ut loud here.

i used to be concise and eloquent, before i became a full tim= e engineer in college. somehow, james has managed to keep his linguis= tic gifts, lucky him :).

lisa

On 6/29/06, Dani= el Reeves <dreeves Æ umich.edu > wrote:=20
I'm getting responses = offline indicating mass misunderstanding of
Bethany's yootles mechanism.=   I encourage you all to spam the group
(reply-all) since it'= s really no problem for people to just ignore/delete
the whole thread (a= s long as you don't change the subject line).

The main question is = "what good is a yootle?"  The answer is, as
established by pr= ecedent, about a fiftieth of a ride to the airport.
Yootles are not mean= t to be exchanged for money.  Nonetheless, if you
acquire yoo= tles you will, in a real sense, get positive utility out of
them. &= nbsp;In fact, I personally guarantee it.  If you can't find anyth= ing
else to do with them I will give you cash for them.  Serio= usly, they're
very useful to me for things like influencing family deci= sions or getting
out of doing the dishes.  Or getting out of tasks my boss as= signs (I kid
you not -- ask him; he's cc'd).  Which perhaps me= ans I shouldn't be
allowed to buy yootles -- that question is still und= er debate.  The whole
yootles thing is still brand new. = It would be great to get input from you
all.

The other ques= tion about Bethany's airport auction people are asking is,
why are peop= le who aren't even in Michigan bidding thousands of yootles?
Yes, it wo= uld be very dumb for me to fly to Detroit to take Bethany to the
airport= to fly to New York to visit me.  But my bid just reflects that i= f
for some crazy hypothetical reason she needed one of us to drive her = at
any cost, that's roughly what the cost to me would be.  Th= e auction
mechanism now uses that information to decide that, yes, it wo= uld be dumb
for Danny to do it!  And, as you can see, I'm for= tunately losing the
auction.

One anonymous person (ok, fine, my grandfat= her) has opined that this is an
awful idea and that people should arrang= e exchanges of favors with no
explicit tracking system.  The = yootles system, he says, undermines the
spirit of magnanimity in favor-= giving and fairness in decision-making and
is bad for society.

Ho= w's that for a gauntlet throwdown?  Let's hear some side-taking..= .

Danny

--- \/   FROM Daniel Reeves AT 06.06.29 12= :13 (Today)   \/ ---

> Oh, wow, airport rides are a gre= at example.  I've more than once wished I
> could respond a= long these lines:
>  "I could but it's at a bad time. = But I'd rather take you than leave
>   you high and = dry.  So, um, could I just pay for your cab?"
> But of cour= se that's not an option.
>
> So, yes, we're making far from soc= ially optimal decisions about rides to the
> airport.  Bethany's idea to= auction off the favor is a really good one!
>
> If you could = humor us and put in a bid even if you can't realistically do it,
> th= at would really help get a feel for how this system might work.
> Lik= e I put in Y$2000 estimating that's how much it would cost to get a last > minute flight to detroit, rent a car, and drive Bethany to the airpo= rt.
>
> Ooh, and let me sweeten the deal:  if you tak= e Bethany to the airport you can
> use her car while she's gone. = ; It's technically still my car, so I can say
> that. :)
>= ;
> Danny
>
> --- \/   FROM bethany soule AT 06= .06.29 08:35 (Today)   \/ ---
>
>> Inasmuch as fai= rer favor tracking and better group decision making
>> improve the= world, I'd like to open this up for discussion:  Can
>>= ; people make better decisions when they can explicitly compare their
>> utilit= ies for the different options?
>>
>> Or, more specificall= y, can I identify from among my friends, who would
>> least mind = taking me to the airport tomorrow?  Let's find out:
>>>> http://www.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/= taxi-cab
>>   Or the view-only version since the abo= ve is browser-picky:
>> http://w= ww.editgrid.com/user/bsoule/taxi-cab.html
>>
>> (Gett= ing 50 yootles should be plenty to get your own ride to the
>> air= port from me or others later.  More at yootles.com.)
>> =
>> Bethany
>>
>
>

--
http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves   - - &nbs= p;search://"Daniel Reeves"

"Life may have no meaning -- or even wor= se, it may have a meaning of
which I disapprove."