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my thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/open-iscsi/browse_frm/thread/c18b3ad4f9...
/0378662e384b78a4#0378662e384b78a4
thread where other newbie got a more welcome reception:
http://groups.google.com/group/open-iscsi/browse_frm/thread/50c3a4eab8...
/86bc7b95a7d6e415#86bc7b95a7d6e415
On 11/6/05, Kevin Lochner wrote:
>
> lisa -
>
> can you post a link to where you were cyber-slighted? just curious.
>
> - kevin
>
>
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Lisa Hsu wrote:
>
> > i would say that i'm a regular old liberal feminist. i've never been one
> to
> > be extreme about anything, i'm sort of of the "can't we all just get
> along"
> > school, and i really do just hope for a society one day where everyone
> can
> > just BE who they want to be without social pressures to be something
> else.
> > however, on some level i do understand that for this to happen there has
> to
> > be some radical action, but i'm somehwat inherently an unradically
> minded
> > person so i can't imagine being a radical feminist because it seems
> > so....dramatic and extreme and...well, radical.
> >
> > however, i will agree with victoria and say that being "not a feminist
> but
> > not *not* a feminist" is somewhat of a copout answer. you either think
> women
> > are full human beings with rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of
> > happiness, whatever form that may take, or you don't. if someone were to
> ask
> > you, "do you think it's acceptable that your daughter/mother/sister is
> > unfairly treated in way X because she's a woman?" you can't possibly
> have a
> > neutral reaction. you either think it sucks and shouldn't be that way or
> you
> > think it's just the way it is and it's fine. in this sense, i think
> everyone
> > is at heart a feminist except for misogynists. but i suppose i am an
> > optimist as well as a feminist.
> >
> > tangentially related...the other day i faced what i imagine to be my
> very
> > first explicitly and maddeningly negative experience as a woman in CS. i
> was
> > having problems getting some open-source code to work in a certain
> > environment, so i posted to a mailing list devoted to that code with my
> > situation and questions. i did mess up and have to send two emails, one
> that
> > said, "hi, i'm trying to X in environment Y, but i'm having problem Z",
> and
> > another that said, "oops, i meant problem Z*, where module A and module
> B
> > are failing to load".
> >
> > now, i'd perused that mailing list for a while before posting, i had
> done
> > all my homework, it wasn't a dumb question, and the group seemed like a
> > helpful group, so i was sure i'd get a good response. instead, i got
> "well,
> > you see, there are two modules, module A and module B."
> >
> > which i thought was pretty obvious since my error acknowledged both of
> them.
> > that is all i ever got out of the list. that guy's response was
> essentially
> > like, "well see, this is a COMPUTER." well, maybe not that bad, but i
> was so
> > filled with indignation and rage at this response, because it
> essentially
> > assumed i was an IDIOT and i'm NOT. i'm getting upset now just thinking
> > about it. i even had a friend acknowledge it probably would have been
> better
> > if i'd signed my name L. Hsu or Larry Hsu or something.
> >
> > I'd never faced anything like this before because most people i interact
> > with i have MET, or something about my qualifications precedes our
> > interaction. but here on the anonymous net, they have no idea that my
> > question is worth thinking about and considering, and it was totally
> blown
> > off. which means we really haven't made any progress, in a vacuum, a
> girl
> > posting to a geek mailing list probably doesn't know shit.
> >
> > it's all the worse because later, some guy posted something like, "hi
> i'm
> > totally new to this, can someone help me figure out this problem?" and
> > another guy wrote, "it's ok! we all start somewhere, try this!" what a
> nice
> > friendly response to what i thought was a much dumber question than mine
> > because i had run into the same thing and figured out how to solve it
> myself
> > in about 20 minutes. yet he got such a friendly reception.
> >
> > GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
> >
> > this has now degenerated into an online rant, and i will cease to do so
> now.
> >
> > lisa
> >
> > On 11/5/05, Michelle Sternthal wrote:
> > >
> > > I am a feminist, proud to call myself that. I would even identify
> myself
> > > as a
> > > radical feminist. Not to the extent that I attribute all blame to men
> > > or argue
> > > for a matriarchy, but to the extent that I think merely equalizing pay
> or
> > > assuring equal representation in our political and judicial spheres
> will
> > > NOT
> > > solve the problem of mysogyny. I think that the very institutions in
> which
> > > we
> > > live currently foster discriminiation/oppression; a fundamental
> > > reexamination
> > > of hidden assumptions and social norms emerging from these
> institutions is
> > > neccessary to get to a new place. What does that mean in reality?
> Well,
> > > for
> > > example, the concept of professionalism in society and the values it
> > > fosters--
> > > individualism, excessive consumption, a hierarchical system of work in
> > > which 1
> > > form of intelligence is prioritized-- creates a system in which women
> must
> > > fit
> > > into traditional patriarchical roles in order to equalize. The notion
> of
> > > work/family strain, or the very nuclear family, reflects the remnants
> of
> > > traditional patriarchy. one can think of alternative models of work or
> > > kinship
> > > ((extended family, think of the kibbutz) in which women would not have
> to
> > > face
> > > this struggle or where other skills would be valued.
> > >
> > > Let's think of gender conceptions, and which institutions encourage
> > > these roles.
> > > From pre-birth, our children are given a gender. Religion, schools,
> > > everywhere
> > > with a public bathroom, highlight this distinction as one of the most
> > > important
> > > in society. To equalize the playing field, we must address these
> > > institutions
> > > as well and the messages they send....
> > >
> > > In order to "subvert the dominant gender paradigm" (that's for you,
> > > Bethany and
> > > Danny) simply demanding laws to equalize pay will not be enough. The
> > > ideology
> > > behind this inequity must also be addressed. this is a war not of the
> law
> > > but
> > > of the mind....
> > >
> > > michelle
> > >
> > >
> > > Quoting Daniel Reeves :
> > >
> > > > Quick show of hands for your basic attitude towards feminism (and
> > > > also I'm curious who all is reading along)?
> > > >
> > > > http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves/improvetheworld
> > > >
> > > > Don't forget to hit submit on the whiteboard. If you don't know what
> > > > that means, just read the poll at the link above and email me your
> > > > (ideally one-word) response.
> > > >
> > > > Thanks y'all!
> > > > Danny
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves - - google://"Daniel Reeves "
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --
> > > Michelle Sternthal
> > > Joint Doctoral Program in Sociology & Public Policy
> > > University of Michigan
> > > 734-709-6650 (cell)
> > > mjste Æ umich.edu
> > >
> > > "We, unaccustomed to courage/ exiles from delight/ live coiled in
> shells
> > > of
> > > loneliness/ until love leaves its high holy temple/ and comes into our
> > > sight/
> > > to liberate us into life."
> > > --Maya Angelou
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
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my thread:
http://groups.google.com/group
/open-iscsi/browse_frm/thread/c18b3ad4f9a800ba/0378662e384b78a4#0378662e 4b78a4
thread where other newbie got a more welcome reception:
http://groups.google.com/group
/open-iscsi/browse_frm/thread/50c3a4eab881b4c3/86bc7b95a7d6e415#86bc7b95a7d6e41
5
On 11/6/05, Kevin Lochner < klochner Æ eecs.umich.edu > wrote:
lisa - can you post a link to where you were cyber-slighted? ;just
curious. - kevin On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Lisa Hsu wrote : > i would say that
i'm a regular old liberal feminist. i've never been one to
> be extreme about anything, i'm sort of of the "can't we all just get
along" > school, and i really do just hope for a society one day where
everyone can > just BE who they want to be without social pressures to be
something else.
> however, on some level i do understand that for this to happen there has
to > be some radical action, but i'm somehwat inherently an unradically
minded > person so i can't imagine being a radical feminist because it
seems
> so....dramatic and extreme and...well, radical. > > however , i
will agree with victoria and say that being "not a feminist but > not *not*
a feminist" is somewhat of a copout answer. you either think women
> are full human beings with rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of >
happiness, whatever form that may take, or you don't. if someone were to ask
> you, "do you think it's acceptable that your daughter /mother/sister is
> unfairly treated in way X because she's a woman?" you can't possibly
have a > neutral reaction. you either think it sucks and shouldn 't be that
way or you > think it's just the way it is and it's fine . in this sense, i
think everyone
> is at heart a feminist except for misogynists. but i suppose i am an
> optimist as well as a feminist. > > tangentially related ...the
other day i faced what i imagine to be my very > first explicitly and
maddeningly negative experience as a woman in CS. i was
> having problems getting some open-source code to work in a certain >
environment, so i posted to a mailing list devoted to that code with my >
situation and questions. i did mess up and have to send two emails , one that
> said, "hi, i'm trying to X in environment Y, but i'm having problem Z",
and > another that said, "oops, i meant problem Z *, where module A and
module B > are failing to load". >
> now, i'd perused that mailing list for a while before posting, i had
done > all my homework, it wasn't a dumb question, and the group seemed
like a > helpful group, so i was sure i'd get a good response. instead , i
got "well,
> you see, there are two modules, module A and module B." > ; > which
i thought was pretty obvious since my error acknowledged both of them. >
that is all i ever got out of the list. that guy's response was essentially
> like, "well see, this is a COMPUTER." well, maybe not that bad, but i
was so > filled with indignation and rage at this response , because it
essentially > assumed i was an IDIOT and i'm NOT. i'm getting upset now
just thinking
> about it. i even had a friend acknowledge it probably would have been
better > if i'd signed my name L. Hsu or Larry Hsu or something. > >
I'd never faced anything like this before because most people i interact
> with i have MET, or something about my qualifications precedes our >
interaction. but here on the anonymous net, they have no idea that my >
question is worth thinking about and considering, and it was totally blown
> off. which means we really haven't made any progress, in a vacuum, a
girl > posting to a geek mailing list probably doesn't know shit. > >
it's all the worse because later, some guy posted something like, "hi i'm
> totally new to this, can someone help me figure out this problem?" ;
and > another guy wrote, "it's ok! we all start somewhere, try this!" what
a nice > friendly response to what i thought was a much dumber question
than mine
> because i had run into the same thing and figured out how to solve it
myself > in about 20 minutes. yet he got such a friendly reception . >
> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR. > > this has now degenerated into
an online rant, and i will cease to do so now.
> > lisa > > On 11/5/05, Michelle Sternthal < mjste Æ
umich.edu > wrote: > > ; > > I am a feminist, proud to call
myself that. I would even identify myself
> > as a > > radical feminist. Not to the extent that I attribute
all blame to men > > or argue > > for a matriarchy , but to the
extent that I think merely equalizing pay or > > assuring equal
representation in our political and judicial spheres will
> > NOT > > solve the problem of mysogyny. I think that the very
institutions in which > > we > > live currently foster
discriminiation/oppression; a fundamental > > reexamination
> > of hidden assumptions and social norms emerging from these
institutions is > > neccessary to get to a new place. What does that
mean in reality? Well, > > for > > example, the concept of
professionalism in society and the values it
> > fosters-- > > individualism, excessive consumption, a
hierarchical system of work in > > which 1 > > form of intelligence
is prioritized-- creates a system in which women must > > fit
> > into traditional patriarchical roles in order to equalize. The
notion of > > work/family strain, or the very nuclear family, reflects
the remnants of > > traditional patriarchy. one can think of alternative
models of work or
> > kinship > > ((extended family, think of the kibbutz) in which
women would not have to > > face > > this struggle or where other
skills would be valued. > > > > Let's think of gender conceptions,
and which institutions encourage
> > these roles. > > From pre-birth, our children are given a
gender. Religion, schools, > > everywhere > > with a public
bathroom, highlight this distinction as one of the most > > ; important
> > in society. To equalize the playing field, we must address these
> > institutions > > as well and the messages they send .... >
> > > In order to "subvert the dominant gender paradigm" (that's for
you,
> > Bethany and > > Danny) simply demanding laws to equalize pay
will not be enough. The > > ideology > > behind this inequity must
also be addressed. this is a war not of the law > > but
> > of the mind.... > > > > michelle > > ; > >
> > Quoting Daniel Reeves < dreeves Æ umich.edu >: > >
> > > Quick show of hands for your basic attitude towards feminism
(and
> > > also I'm curious who all is reading along)? > > >
> > > http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves/improvetheworld
> > > > > > Don't forget to hit submit on the whiteboard .
If you don't know what > > > that means, just read the poll at the
link above and email me your > > > (ideally one-word ) response.
> > > > > > Thanks y'all! > > > Danny > >
> > > > -- > > > http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves
- - google://"Daniel Reeves" > > > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > -- > > Michelle Sternthal >
> Joint Doctoral Program in Sociology & Public Policy
> > University of Michigan > > 734-709-6650 (cell) > ; >
mjste Æ umich.edu > > > > "We, unaccustomed to courage/
exiles from delight/ live coiled in shells
> > of > > loneliness/ until love leaves its high holy temple /
and comes into our > > sight/ > > to liberate us into life." >
> --Maya Angelou > > > >
> > >
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