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Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 18:29:02 -0500 (EST)
To: Lisa Hsu <lisashoe &AElig gmail.com>
cc: improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu
From: Kevin Lochner <klochner &AElig eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: are you a feminist?
Status: RO

lisa -

can you post a link to where you were cyber-slighted?  just curious.

- kevin


On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Lisa Hsu wrote:

> i would say that i'm a regular old liberal feminist. i've never been one to
> be extreme about anything, i'm sort of of the "can't we all just get along"
> school, and i really do just hope for a society one day where everyone can
> just BE who they want to be without social pressures to be something else.
> however, on some level i do understand that for this to happen there has to
> be some radical action, but i'm somehwat inherently an unradically minded
> person so i can't imagine being a radical feminist because it seems
> so....dramatic and extreme and...well, radical.
>
> however, i will agree with victoria and say that being "not a feminist but
> not *not* a feminist" is somewhat of a copout answer. you either think women
> are full human beings with rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of
> happiness, whatever form that may take, or you don't. if someone were to ask
> you, "do you think it's acceptable that your daughter/mother/sister is
> unfairly treated in way X because she's a woman?" you can't possibly have a
> neutral reaction. you either think it sucks and shouldn't be that way or you
> think it's just the way it is and it's fine. in this sense, i think everyone
> is at heart a feminist except for misogynists. but i suppose i am an
> optimist as well as a feminist.
>
> tangentially related...the other day i faced what i imagine to be my very
> first explicitly and maddeningly negative experience as a woman in CS. i was
> having problems getting some open-source code to work in a certain
> environment, so i posted to a mailing list devoted to that code with my
> situation and questions. i did mess up and have to send two emails, one that
> said, "hi, i'm trying to X in environment Y, but i'm having problem Z", and
> another that said, "oops, i meant problem Z*, where module A and module B
> are failing to load".
>
> now, i'd perused that mailing list for a while before posting, i had done
> all my homework, it wasn't a dumb question, and the group seemed like a
> helpful group, so i was sure i'd get a good response. instead, i got "well,
> you see, there are two modules, module A and module B."
>
> which i thought was pretty obvious since my error acknowledged both of them.
> that is all i ever got out of the list. that guy's response was essentially
> like, "well see, this is a COMPUTER." well, maybe not that bad, but i was so
> filled with indignation and rage at this response, because it essentially
> assumed i was an IDIOT and i'm NOT. i'm getting upset now just thinking
> about it. i even had a friend acknowledge it probably would have been better
> if i'd signed my name L. Hsu or Larry Hsu or something.
>
> I'd never faced anything like this before because most people i interact
> with i have MET, or something about my qualifications precedes our
> interaction. but here on the anonymous net, they have no idea that my
> question is worth thinking about and considering, and it was totally blown
> off. which means we really haven't made any progress, in a vacuum, a girl
> posting to a geek mailing list probably doesn't know shit.
>
> it's all the worse because later, some guy posted something like, "hi i'm
> totally new to this, can someone help me figure out this problem?" and
> another guy wrote, "it's ok! we all start somewhere, try this!" what a nice
> friendly response to what i thought was a much dumber question than mine
> because i had run into the same thing and figured out how to solve it myself
> in about 20 minutes. yet he got such a friendly reception.
>
> GRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR.
>
> this has now degenerated into an online rant, and i will cease to do so now.
>
> lisa
>
> On 11/5/05, Michelle Sternthal <mjste &AElig umich.edu> wrote:
> >
> > I am a feminist, proud to call myself that. I would even identify myself
> > as a
> > radical feminist. Not to the extent that I attribute all blame to men
> > or argue
> > for a matriarchy, but to the extent that I think merely equalizing pay or
> > assuring equal representation in our political and judicial spheres will
> > NOT
> > solve the problem of mysogyny. I think that the very institutions in which
> > we
> > live currently foster discriminiation/oppression; a fundamental
> > reexamination
> > of hidden assumptions and social norms emerging from these institutions is
> > neccessary to get to a new place. What does that mean in reality? Well,
> > for
> > example, the concept of professionalism in society and the values it
> > fosters--
> > individualism, excessive consumption, a hierarchical system of work in
> > which 1
> > form of intelligence is prioritized-- creates a system in which women must
> > fit
> > into traditional patriarchical roles in order to equalize. The notion of
> > work/family strain, or the very nuclear family, reflects the remnants of
> > traditional patriarchy. one can think of alternative models of work or
> > kinship
> > ((extended family, think of the kibbutz) in which women would not have to
> > face
> > this struggle or where other skills would be valued.
> >
> > Let's think of gender conceptions, and which institutions encourage
> > these roles.
> > From pre-birth, our children are given a gender. Religion, schools,
> > everywhere
> > with a public bathroom, highlight this distinction as one of the most
> > important
> > in society. To equalize the playing field, we must address these
> > institutions
> > as well and the messages they send....
> >
> > In order to "subvert the dominant gender paradigm" (that's for you,
> > Bethany and
> > Danny) simply demanding laws to equalize pay will not be enough. The
> > ideology
> > behind this inequity must also be addressed. this is a war not of the law
> > but
> > of the mind....
> >
> > michelle
> >
> >
> > Quoting Daniel Reeves <dreeves &AElig umich.edu>:
> >
> > > Quick show of hands for your basic attitude towards feminism (and
> > > also I'm curious who all is reading along)?
> > >
> > > http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves/improvetheworld
> > >
> > > Don't forget to hit submit on the whiteboard. If you don't know what
> > > that means, just read the poll at the link above and email me your
> > > (ideally one-word) response.
> > >
> > > Thanks y'all!
> > > Danny
> > >
> > > --
> > > http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/dreeves - - google://"Daniel Reeves"
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Michelle Sternthal
> > Joint Doctoral Program in Sociology & Public Policy
> > University of Michigan
> > 734-709-6650 (cell)
> > mjste &AElig umich.edu
> >
> > "We, unaccustomed to courage/ exiles from delight/ live coiled in shells
> > of
> > loneliness/ until love leaves its high holy temple/ and comes into our
> > sight/
> > to liberate us into life."
> > --Maya Angelou
> >
> >
> >
>