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i have to say i'm more in agreement with melanie here than my dear friend
vic and michelle.
all this stuff about women being barraged with oppression and stuff makes me
feel more victimized than anything. but i'm not a victim. i'm exposed to the
same media outlets as everyone else, maybe even more so since i read the
news fifty times a day, have had subscriptions to self, glamour, cosmo, and
instyle, and read a lot about celebrity gossip. at the same time, maybe i am
just some strange anomaly with a weird inoculation to all this social stuff
that enabled me to be different than many girls...but at the same time i
know a lot of people who aren't victims of being a society conspiring to
bring them down. i'm not into conspiracy theories. constantly being told to
take up less space? implicitly told to suck? i don't know...this is another
can of worms but that might be more parental or caused by some traumatic
event as a kid than a reflection of greater society. anyway...stuff that
tells me that my whole life i've been exposed to awful things and i'm just
deluded into thinking the way i think because of a greater social conspiracy
against women doesn't jive with me.
lisa
On 11/6/05, Melanie Reeves wrote:
>
> Ok, I have something to chime in about. I'm not following every response
> either, but those that are short enough to read somewhat quickly. Like my
> mom, I get uninterested when I have to read a whole book (funny, cause I've
> been known to write ridiculously long emails when it's something I have a
> lot to say about - so I don't blame anyone). In respone to one of Victoria 's
> comments:
> "women are constantly told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less than
> what they are or could be, to deny themselves, not to outdo others."
> I personally can't think of any time in my life where I've gotten that
> message. I've always been encouraged to do my best at everything. If anyone
> that grew up with me can think of anything that contradicts that, let me
> know. If there are women that have gotten that message, I can see that it
> would mess with them psychologically and could lead to a need to exert
> control of something in their life and anorexia is a false feeling of
> control that unfortunately gets turned to. Out of all the people that I know
> personally, the only one I know that's had anorexia is male. He was
> unfortunately molested as a child too. Fortunately, he's doing very well
> today. Men definitely get the message that they need to look good too,
> probably more younger men - I'm guessing, I don't have much perspective from
> older men. Those makeover shows have men too, getting calf implants, nose
> jobs, face lifts, etc ... and then there's all the hair growth products for
> men. Being muscular enough causes a lot of steroid and fake supplement use .
> I do see that there is more push from society for the pursuit of beauty for
> women, but still, the society as a whole, is focused on looking good, for
> both sexes.
> As far as the general media influence goes, everyone gets that.
> Unfortunately, some people get wrong messages from more personal influences
> in their lives and that's where there's a problem. I've gotten the message
> from the world around me that women need to look hot and be skinny and it
> hasn't driven me to anorexia of any form (there's also obsessive exercise as
> a form of anorexia - and that just reminded me of another MALE I knew, who
> ended up getting fired because he wouldn't stop working out on his shift. He
> would run at least a marathon a day and then do hours on the stairmaster
> while at work, to the point where he wouldn't help customers because it
> would interupt his workout. He would also stay past closing to finish the
> stairmaster. He looked scary thin too.)
> That's all for now,
> Thanks,
> Melanie (Danny's favorite sister ... ok only sister too, but whatever :-) )
>
> *Victoria Li Fossum * wrote:
>
> Dear Danny's Grandpa Andrew,
>
> Thankyou for your comments. They gave me quite some food for thought, and
> it is refreshing to debate with people who are unafraid to speak their
> mind.
>
> According to my preliminary investigations on the web, Catharine Mackinnon
> did NOT in fact say that "all sex is rape"--Michelle, you may dispute me
> on this, but it appears that that is a quote that is wrongly attributed to
> her. But let me ask you this, Danny's Grandpa Andrew--have you ever been
> coerced into having sex? If not, then you may not appreciate how often
> participation in sex is, in fact, coerced, even in the cases where both
> parties presume that they are consenting adults. And Mackinnon, I
> believe, would argue that in pornography, all participation on the part of
> women is coerced, though they may be too deluded (perhaps because of a
> history of sexual abuse that has warped their perceptions of sexual
> relationships) to recognize this as coercion. And coercion, taken to an
> extreme, becomes rape. But Mackinnon's arguments, as least the ones I am
> familiar with, center around the role of women in pornography, and I do
> not believe she means to label all sex in the general context as rape.
>
> As for Michelle's suggestion that anorexia reflects, in part, a pressure
> for women to take up less space in the world: this is not Michelle's
> original idea but something that various psychologists have proposed as
> one of many analyses for the phenomena of anorexia/bulimia. While it's
> true that the ways in which women are encouraged to alter their bodies in
> order to please men are varied and likely to depend on the social whims of
> the age (for example, breast implants and tanning salons are also popular
> among women these days, but neither actually diminishes the amount of
> space the woman takes up in the world--in fact, the former would actually
> increase it), the root causes of a disease like anorexia are complex and
> many factors may contribute to it. For instance, one hypothesis is that
> women become anorexic as a way to stave off the advancement of puberty or
> womanhood (as you probably know, anorexia causes the cessation of
> menstruation, as well as preventing the development of fatty tissue on the
> breasts and hips and preserving an overall androgynous child-like
> appearance). Another well-accepted hypothesis is that anorexia is
> rooted in a desire to exert self-control; thus, you could argue, if
> cultural beauty ideals were different, perhaps women would manifest this
> desire for self-control in some other way than by starving themselves.
>
> But I believe there is merit to the notion that "taking up less space"
> contributes to the development of anorexia, for the following reason:
> women are constant told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less than what
> they are or could be, to deny themselves, not do outdo others. And the
> ultimate in self-abnegation is to disappear altogether, so why shouldn't
> that be yet another motivation for the development of anorexia?
>
> Let me also throw out a word of caution here: men should realize, when
> undertaking participation in a debate over issues that concern women, that
> it is impossible for them to experience these issues exactly as a woman
> would, and that therefore they should allow that their understanding of
> these issues is likely to be incomplete. And women's understanding of
> issues such as rape and anorexia is likely to be incomplete unless they
> have experienced those things. And women who have experienced those
> things are likely to have an understanding that is incomplete because they
> cannot know how other women have experienced those things, and moreover
> they may not be aware of the large psychological literature about these
> phenomena that might increase their own understanding. And so on... so it
> is wise to be circumspect in your criticisms unless you are certain that
> your understanding surpasses everyone else's.
>
> -Victoria
>
> On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Andrew Reeves wrote:
>
> > Grandson Danny knows that I am, by nature, a COLLECTOR and my latest
> > hobby is to collect idiotic absurdities among the arguments and maxims
> > that show up in this debate. No doubt the eternal first prize goes to
> > the quote attributed to Catherine McKinnon: "ALL SEX IS RAPE" but
> > Michelle Sternthal's suggestion that "the female ideal of fragile stick -
> > thin bodies is yet another means of encouraging women to take up less
> > space in the world" comes close.
> > Right on! Supply me more! --DANNY'S GRANDPA ANDREW
> >
>
>
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i have to say i'm more in agreement with melanie here than my dear friend vic
and michelle.
all this stuff about women being barraged with oppression and stuff
makes me feel more victimized than anything. but i'm not a
victim. i'm exposed to the same media outlets as everyone else,
maybe even more so since i read the news fifty times a day, have had
subscriptions to self, glamour, cosmo, and instyle, and read a lot
about celebrity gossip. at the same time, maybe i am just some
strange anomaly with a weird inoculation to all this social stuff that
enabled me to be different than many girls...but at the same time i
know a lot of people who aren't victims of being a society conspiring
to bring them down. i'm not into conspiracy theories.
constantly being told to take up less space? implicitly told to
suck? i don't know...this is another can of worms but that might
be more parental or caused by some traumatic event as a kid than a
reflection of greater society. anyway...stuff that tells me that
my whole life i've been exposed to awful things and i'm just deluded
into thinking the way i think because of a greater social conspiracy
against women doesn't jive with me.
lisa On 11/6/05, Melanie Reeves < melzafish Æ sbcglobal.net >
wrote:
Ok, I have something to chime in about. I'm not following
every response either, but those that are short enough to read
somewhat quickly. Like my mom, I get uninterested when I
have to read a whole book (funny, cause I've been known to write
ridiculously long emails when it's something I have a lot to say about
- so I don't blame anyone). In respone to one of Victoria's
comments:
"women are constantly told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less
than what they are or could be, to deny themselves, not to outdo
others."
I personally can't think of any time in my life where I've gotten
that message. I've always been encouraged to do my best at
everything. If anyone that grew up with me can think of anything
that contradicts that, let me know. If there are women that have
gotten that message, I can see that it would mess with them
psychologically and could lead to a need to exert control of
something in their life and anorexia is a false feeling of control that
unfortunately gets turned to. Out of all the people that I know
personally, the only one I know that's had anorexia is male.
He was unfortunately molested as a child too. Fortunately, he's
doing very well today. Men definitely get the message that they
need to look good too, probably more younger men - I'm guessing, I
don't have much perspective from older men. Those makeover shows
have men too, getting calf implants, nose jobs, face lifts,
etc ... and then there's all the hair growth products for
men. Being muscular enough causes a lot of steroid and
fake supplement use. I do see that there is more push from
society for the pursuit of beauty for women, but still, the society as
a whole, is focused on looking good, for both sexes.
As far as the general media influence goes, everyone gets
that. Unfortunately, some people get wrong messages from more
personal influences in their lives and that's where there's a
problem. I've gotten the message from the world around me that
women need to look hot and be skinny and it hasn't driven me to
anorexia of any form (there's also obsessive exercise as a form of
anorexia - and that just reminded me of another MALE
I knew, who ended up getting fired because he wouldn't stop
working out on his shift. He would run at least a marathon a day
and then do hours on the stairmaster while at work, to the point
where he wouldn't help customers because it would interupt his
workout. He would also stay past closing to finish the
stairmaster. He looked scary thin too.)
That's all for now,
Thanks,
Melanie (Danny's favorite sister ... ok only sister too, but whatever :-))
Victoria Li Fossum <
vfossum Æ eecs.umich.edu > wrote:
Dear Danny's Grandpa Andrew, Thankyou for your comments. They gave me quite
some food for thought, and it is refreshing to debate with people who are
unafraid to speak their
mind. According to my preliminary investigations on the web, Catharine
Mackinnon did NOT in fact say that "all sex is rape"--Michelle , you may
dispute me on this, but it appears that that is a quote that is wrongly
attributed to
her. But let me ask you this, Danny's Grandpa Andrew--have you ever been
coerced into having sex? If not, then you may not appreciate how often
participation in sex is, in fact, coerced, even in the cases where both
parties presume that they are consenting adults. And Mackinnon, I believe ,
would argue that in pornography, all participation on the part of women is
coerced, though they may be too deluded (perhaps because of a
history of sexual
abuse that has warped their perceptions of sexual relationships) to recognize
this as coercion. And coercion, taken to an extreme, becomes rape . But
Mackinnon's arguments, as least the ones I am familiar with, center around the
role of women in pornography, and I do
not believe she means to label all sex in the general context as rape. As for
Michelle's suggestion that anorexia reflects, in part, a pressure for women to
take up less space in the world: this is not Michelle's
original idea but something that various psychologists have proposed as one
of many analyses for the phenomena of anorexia/bulimia. While it's true that
the ways in which women are encouraged to alter their bodies in
order to please men are varied and likely to depend on the social whims of
the age (for example, breast implants and tanning salons are also popular
among women these days, but neither actually diminishes the amount of
space the woman takes up in the
world--in fact, the former would actually increase it), the root causes of a
disease like anorexia are complex and many factors may contribute to it. For
instance, one hypothesis is that women become anorexic as a way to stave off
the advancement of puberty or
womanhood (as you probably know, anorexia causes the cessation of menstruation
, as well as preventing the development of fatty tissue on the breasts and hips
and preserving an overall androgynous child-like appearance ). Another
well-accepted hypothesis is that anorexia is
rooted in a desire to exert self-control; thus, you could argue, if cultural
beauty ideals were different, perhaps women would manifest this desire for
self-control in some other way than by starving themselves.
But I believe there is merit to the notion that "taking up less space"
contributes to the development of anorexia, for the following reason: women
are constant told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less than
what they are or could be, to deny themselves, not do outdo others. And the
ultimate in self-abnegation is to disappear altogether, so why shouldn 't that
be yet another motivation for the development of anorexia?
Let me also throw out a word of caution here: men should realize, when
undertaking participation in a debate over issues that concern women , that it
is impossible for them to experience these issues exactly as a woman
would, and that therefore they should allow that their understanding of these
issues is likely to be incomplete. And women's understanding of issues such as
rape and anorexia is likely to be incomplete unless they
have experienced those things. And women who have experienced those things
are likely to have an understanding that is incomplete because they cannot know
how other women have experienced those things, and moreover
they may not be aware of the large psychological literature about these
phenomena that
might increase their own understanding. And so on... so it is wise to be
circumspect in your criticisms unless you are certain that your understanding
surpasses everyone else's. -Victoria On Sun, 6 Nov 20 , Andrew Reeves wrote:
> Grandson Danny knows that I am, by nature, a COLLECTOR and my latest
> hobby is to collect idiotic absurdities among the arguments and maxims
> that show up in this debate. No doubt the eternal first prize goes to
> the quote attributed to Catherine McKinnon: "ALL SEX IS RAPE" ; but
> Michelle Sternthal's suggestion that "the female ideal of fragile stick-
> thin bodies is yet another means of encouraging women to take up less
> space in the world" comes close. > Right on! Supply me more !
--DANNY'S GRANDPA ANDREW >
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