Sender: -2.6 (spamval) -- NONE
In-Reply-To: <436E496B.8C1EAD76 &AElig wayne.edu>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.58.0511061606550.16374 &AElig brio.eecs.umich.edu>
References: <572acfa2564.436e36f3 &AElig hilltop.bradley.edu>  <20051106113840.7lw22esvdw4gs40c &AElig web.mail.umich.edu> <436E496B.8C1EAD76 &AElig wayne.edu>
MIME-Version: 1.0
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2005 16:36:10 -0500 (EST)
To: Andrew Reeves <andrew.reeves &AElig wayne.edu>
cc: improvetheworld &AElig umich.edu
From: Victoria Li Fossum <vfossum &AElig eecs.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: are you a feminist?
Status: O

Dear Danny's Grandpa Andrew,

Thankyou for your comments.  They gave me quite some food for thought, and
it is refreshing to debate with people who are unafraid to speak their
mind.

According to my preliminary investigations on the web, Catharine Mackinnon
did NOT in fact say that "all sex is rape"--Michelle, you may dispute me
on this, but it appears that that is a quote that is wrongly attributed to
her.  But let me ask you this, Danny's Grandpa Andrew--have you ever been
coerced into having sex?  If not, then you may not appreciate how often
participation in sex is, in fact, coerced, even in the cases where both
parties presume that they are consenting adults.  And Mackinnon, I
believe, would argue that in pornography, all participation on the part of
women is coerced, though they may be too deluded (perhaps because of a
history of sexual abuse that has warped their perceptions of sexual
relationships) to recognize this as coercion.  And coercion, taken to an
extreme, becomes rape.  But Mackinnon's arguments, as least the ones I am
familiar with, center around the role of women in pornography, and I do
not believe she means to label all sex in the general context as rape.

As for Michelle's suggestion that anorexia reflects, in part, a pressure
for women to take up less space in the world: this is not Michelle's
original idea but something that various psychologists have proposed as
one of many analyses for the phenomena of anorexia/bulimia.  While it's
true that the ways in which women are encouraged to alter their bodies in
order to please men are varied and likely to depend on the social whims of
the age (for example, breast implants and tanning salons are also popular
among women these days, but neither actually diminishes the amount of
space the woman takes up in the world--in fact, the former would actually
increase it), the root causes of a disease like anorexia are complex and
many factors may contribute to it.  For instance, one hypothesis is that
women become anorexic as a way to stave off the advancement of puberty or
womanhood (as you probably know, anorexia causes the cessation of
menstruation, as well as preventing the development of fatty tissue on the
breasts and hips and preserving an overall androgynous child-like
appearance).  Another well-accepted hypothesis is that anorexia is
rooted in a desire to exert self-control; thus, you could argue, if
cultural beauty ideals were different, perhaps women would manifest this
desire for self-control in some other way than by starving themselves.

But I believe there is merit to the notion that "taking up less space"
contributes to the development of anorexia, for the following reason:
women are constant told, in subtle and overt ways, to be less than what
they are or could be, to deny themselves, not do outdo others.  And the
ultimate in self-abnegation is to disappear altogether, so why shouldn't
that be yet another motivation for the development of anorexia?

Let me also throw out a word of caution here: men should realize, when
undertaking participation in a debate over issues that concern women, that
it is impossible for them to experience these issues exactly as a woman
would, and that therefore they should allow that their understanding of
these issues is likely to be incomplete.  And women's understanding of
issues such as rape and anorexia is likely to be incomplete unless they
have experienced those things.  And women who have experienced those
things are likely to have an understanding that is incomplete because they
cannot know how other women have experienced those things, and moreover
they may not be aware of the large psychological literature about these
phenomena that might increase their own understanding.  And so on... so it
is wise to be circumspect in your criticisms unless you are certain that
your understanding surpasses everyone else's.

-Victoria

On Sun, 6 Nov 2005, Andrew Reeves wrote:

>   Grandson Danny knows that I am, by nature, a COLLECTOR and my latest
> hobby is to collect idiotic absurdities among the arguments and maxims
> that show up in this debate. No doubt the eternal first prize goes to
> the quote attributed to Catherine McKinnon: "ALL SEX IS RAPE" but
> Michelle Sternthal's suggestion that "the female ideal of fragile stick-
> thin bodies is yet another means of encouraging women to take up less
> space in the world" comes close.
>   Right on! Supply me more! --DANNY'S GRANDPA ANDREW
>